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> to literal corrupt communists This kind of stupid hyperbole is not really conducive to any civil discussion. Calling Lula a communist in 2023 is akin to call

by piva00 3y ago

> to literal corrupt communists This kind of stupid hyperbole is not really conducive to any civil discussion. Calling Lula a communist in 2023 is akin to calling Tony Blair a communist in 1997: misguided red-scare tactics against someone who basically embraced neoliberalism in favour of any socialist tendencies to achieve power. Don't be that kind of person, it just make you look dumb.

matheusmoreira 3y ago
You're saying I can't call Lula, the guy who called himself a "refined socialist" not even a year ago, a communist. Really now. Guess I'm gonna insist on looking dumb then. It's shocking to me that the fact he's a communist is news to people. If you really believe this guy... Go ahead and give him your Amazon subsidies. Watch him spend it on absolutely critical matters like massive raises for the supreme court judges who are persecuting his political enemies.
- piva00 3y ago
  Him calling himself that for political points is extremely different than being one. Lula is not a communist, he hasn't been since his first 2 terms between 2002-2010. He embraced completely the "Third Way" of social-democracy, which means it is completely enveloped by the frame of neoliberalism. Banks made a killing during 2002-2010, how would a communist be supportive of the finance industry? It's shocking to me you are Brazilian and don't know this, it's shocking you parrot red-scare tactics as if Lula is about to start a Communist Revolution in Brazil. He isn't, he is not a communist. And socialism is not communism.
  - matheusmoreira 3y ago
    If he doesn't look like a communist to you, it's only because brazilian society applied some brakes on him. It's not for a lack of trying. 2010 you say? Let's remember: https://g1.globo.com/politica/noticia/2010/05/presidente-altera-trechos-polemicos-do-plano-de-direitos-humanos.html https://g1.globo.com/politica/noticia/2010/05/presidente-alt... Let's see... Relativization of private property, media censorship, taxes on accumulated capital, religious persecution. Wow, literally the same talking points that surfaced in last year's elections. Yeah, you're seriously mistaken if you think this guy isn't a communist. And that article is from 2010, the media wasn't so friendly to him back then. Now that same media backs him and he also has supreme court judges backing his every move... Let's just say I'm glad you were able to leave this place. I'm genuinely happy for you. I would have left too but my family refused to come with me and I didn't have the heart to leave them behind. > And socialism is not communism. Who cares?
    - piva00 3y ago
      > Let's see... Relativization of private property, media censorship, taxes on accumulated capital, religious persecution. This is red-scare rhetoric, not communism. > Who cares? Anyone trying to have a discussion/debate about ideologies, like what you are trying to do. Words have meaning, in a discussion this meaning matters. If you don't care, then you don't care for the discussion, you are just soapboxing.
      - matheusmoreira 3y ago
        > This is red-scare rhetoric, not communism. It's not "rhetoric" at all, it's literally what he's doing. His strategy has always been to slowly install socialism small bits at a time so that nobody notices. Therefore it's obvious what his objective is when he starts saying you should have to "mediate" with someone who invades your private property instead of having access to the justice system or the right to use force. Why can't you see? > Anyone trying to have a discussion/debate about ideologies It's the 21st century, we don't "debate" communism anymore. I'm not at all interested in the academic difference between these terms. They're history. The whole problem is we got these fools trying to install this cancer in my country in the first place.
        rcarr 3y ago
        Why do you throw the word socialism about as if it is exactly the same as communism? The Nordic nations are socialist democracies and they’re regarded as some of the best run and happiest places on earth, with a business friendly environment that allows for entrepreneurs to take risks because they know there is a social safety net to fall back on if it doesn’t work out. The left and right can be both right and wrong simultaneously. You’re meant to adapt policies for the contextual situation. In fact, this is the entire point of a democracy, to oscillate between opposing ideologies throughout time as the flaws of one become apparent to such an extent that the incumbent system starts showing weakness, disgruntling the populace to such an extent that they course correct the system by electing the opposing ideology.
        3y ago
  - pelasaco 3y ago
    > And socialism is not communism. You are wrong: "Communism (from Latin communis, 'common, universal')[1][2] is a left-wing to far-left sociopolitical, philosophical, and economic ideology within the socialist movement" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism > Lula is not a communist, he hasn't been since his first 2 terms between 2002-2010. He is communist, because his political articulation and the structure assembled to stay in Power, is communist. Is his Doctrine Communism? He never read a book his whole Life, so I guess he has no clue about theory. His thing is money and power. Like any other communist.
  - impeplague 3y ago
    I really apreciate the time you're taking to argue with this guy, but I must tell you that it is a lost battle (if you already know this, sorry). Here in Brazil, the red-scare tactics are the far right's bread and butter (like anywere on the world). So, judging by his response pattern so far, there is a high chance that he is a hardcore Bolsonaro supporter. While some can be reasoned with, most are cannot be. Well, at least other readers can see a couterpoint.
    - matheusmoreira 3y ago
      Lol, a "we're so high and mighty the other guy's a lost cause" response here on HN. Feels like I'm on Instagram. Dude, you literally cannot refute the fact that Lula is a communist. His own words say so. His own actions say so. Don't bullshit me about "red-scare tactics" when you have exactly zero arguments. If you don't think these people being communists is a problem, you should educate yourself on the massive damage, misery and loss of life they caused in any country where they achieved power. I'd rather be ruled by literal nazis. Also I couldn't care less about Bolsonaro. He's irrelevant now, forget about him. I criticized him a lot during his mandate, especially his needlessly inept handling of the pandemic but I do prefer him over literal communists any day. That about sums up my opinion of that guy.

by piva00 3y ago

matheusmoreira 3y ago

You're saying I can't call Lula, the guy who called himself a "refined socialist" not even a year ago, a communist. Really now. Guess I'm gonna insist on looking dumb then. It's shocking to me that the fact he's a communist is news to people. If you really believe this guy... Go ahead and give him your Amazon subsidies. Watch him spend it on absolutely critical matters like massive raises for the supreme court judges who are persecuting his political enemies.

piva00 3y ago
Him calling himself that for political points is extremely different than being one. Lula is not a communist, he hasn't been since his first 2 terms between 2002-2010. He embraced completely the "Third Way" of social-democracy, which means it is completely enveloped by the frame of neoliberalism. Banks made a killing during 2002-2010, how would a communist be supportive of the finance industry? It's shocking to me you are Brazilian and don't know this, it's shocking you parrot red-scare tactics as if Lula is about to start a Communist Revolution in Brazil. He isn't, he is not a communist. And socialism is not communism.
- matheusmoreira 3y ago
  If he doesn't look like a communist to you, it's only because brazilian society applied some brakes on him. It's not for a lack of trying. 2010 you say? Let's remember: https://g1.globo.com/politica/noticia/2010/05/presidente-altera-trechos-polemicos-do-plano-de-direitos-humanos.html https://g1.globo.com/politica/noticia/2010/05/presidente-alt... Let's see... Relativization of private property, media censorship, taxes on accumulated capital, religious persecution. Wow, literally the same talking points that surfaced in last year's elections. Yeah, you're seriously mistaken if you think this guy isn't a communist. And that article is from 2010, the media wasn't so friendly to him back then. Now that same media backs him and he also has supreme court judges backing his every move... Let's just say I'm glad you were able to leave this place. I'm genuinely happy for you. I would have left too but my family refused to come with me and I didn't have the heart to leave them behind. > And socialism is not communism. Who cares?
  - piva00 3y ago
    > Let's see... Relativization of private property, media censorship, taxes on accumulated capital, religious persecution. This is red-scare rhetoric, not communism. > Who cares? Anyone trying to have a discussion/debate about ideologies, like what you are trying to do. Words have meaning, in a discussion this meaning matters. If you don't care, then you don't care for the discussion, you are just soapboxing.
    - matheusmoreira 3y ago
      > This is red-scare rhetoric, not communism. It's not "rhetoric" at all, it's literally what he's doing. His strategy has always been to slowly install socialism small bits at a time so that nobody notices. Therefore it's obvious what his objective is when he starts saying you should have to "mediate" with someone who invades your private property instead of having access to the justice system or the right to use force. Why can't you see? > Anyone trying to have a discussion/debate about ideologies It's the 21st century, we don't "debate" communism anymore. I'm not at all interested in the academic difference between these terms. They're history. The whole problem is we got these fools trying to install this cancer in my country in the first place.
      - rcarr 3y ago
        Why do you throw the word socialism about as if it is exactly the same as communism? The Nordic nations are socialist democracies and they’re regarded as some of the best run and happiest places on earth, with a business friendly environment that allows for entrepreneurs to take risks because they know there is a social safety net to fall back on if it doesn’t work out. The left and right can be both right and wrong simultaneously. You’re meant to adapt policies for the contextual situation. In fact, this is the entire point of a democracy, to oscillate between opposing ideologies throughout time as the flaws of one become apparent to such an extent that the incumbent system starts showing weakness, disgruntling the populace to such an extent that they course correct the system by electing the opposing ideology.
        3y ago
- pelasaco 3y ago
  > And socialism is not communism. You are wrong: "Communism (from Latin communis, 'common, universal')[1][2] is a left-wing to far-left sociopolitical, philosophical, and economic ideology within the socialist movement" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism > Lula is not a communist, he hasn't been since his first 2 terms between 2002-2010. He is communist, because his political articulation and the structure assembled to stay in Power, is communist. Is his Doctrine Communism? He never read a book his whole Life, so I guess he has no clue about theory. His thing is money and power. Like any other communist.
- impeplague 3y ago
  I really apreciate the time you're taking to argue with this guy, but I must tell you that it is a lost battle (if you already know this, sorry). Here in Brazil, the red-scare tactics are the far right's bread and butter (like anywere on the world). So, judging by his response pattern so far, there is a high chance that he is a hardcore Bolsonaro supporter. While some can be reasoned with, most are cannot be. Well, at least other readers can see a couterpoint.
  - matheusmoreira 3y ago
    Lol, a "we're so high and mighty the other guy's a lost cause" response here on HN. Feels like I'm on Instagram. Dude, you literally cannot refute the fact that Lula is a communist. His own words say so. His own actions say so. Don't bullshit me about "red-scare tactics" when you have exactly zero arguments. If you don't think these people being communists is a problem, you should educate yourself on the massive damage, misery and loss of life they caused in any country where they achieved power. I'd rather be ruled by literal nazis. Also I couldn't care less about Bolsonaro. He's irrelevant now, forget about him. I criticized him a lot during his mandate, especially his needlessly inept handling of the pandemic but I do prefer him over literal communists any day. That about sums up my opinion of that guy.