4 ms·

Recasting Lara Croft is more like recasting Duke Nukem into a skinny woke guy. Makes no sense IMO.

Apocryphon 3y ago
Given how DNF has seemingly sank that franchise, don’t give them any ideas!
pavlov 3y ago
The article touches on this topic. Why should Lara Croft be changed towards a more realistic female shape when pseudo-Schwarzeneggers abound in games? ’On the other hand, the same male gamers had for years been seeing images of almost equally unattainable masculine perfection on their screens, all bulging biceps and chiseled abs. How was this different? Many sensed that it was different, somehow, but few could articulate why. Michelle Goulet of the website Game Girlz perhaps said it best: Lara was “the man’s ideal image of a girl, not a girl’s ideal image of a girl.” The inverse was not true of all those warrior hunks: they were “based on the body image that is ideal to a lot of guys, not girls. They are nowhere near my ideal man.” The male gaze, that is to say, was the arbiter in both cases.’
- FredPret 3y ago
  Nowadays there are more women in gaming, but when Lara Croft first appeared, it would have been odd to expect anything but a male gaze from a popluation of nearly 100% male developers and customers.
  - cubefox 3y ago
    And "male gaze" wasn't a deciding factor anyway. Lara Croft wasn't even viewed as a sex object like some singers or actresses.
    - zztop44 3y ago
      If you think this you weren’t a middle school boy when Tomb Raider came out :)
      - pezezin 3y ago
        Oh man, I still remember the day my parents found my drawings of naked Lara. Not that I was any good at drawing, I just used the old technique of tracing the original pictures on a thin piece of paper, adding a dash of teenage horniness in the process.
    - Endy 3y ago
      Did you not see the Maxim "photoshoot"? Lara and Aki Ross from Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within were both covergirls of Maxim, rendered in underwear or swimwear. Or, perhaps you disregard the fact that the most persistent rumor about Tomb Raider 1 & 2 was the "nude code"? Lara Croft was the nerd equivalent of Marilyn Monroe and Madonna, at the same time. She was the gaming sex symbol.
      - cubefox 3y ago
        Gamers would be interested in a nude code for any attractive female main character of any well-known video game whatsoever. Just like men would like to see even a politician like AOC (like any reasonably attractive celebrity woman) in Playboy. But that doesn't make AOC a sex symbol. Lara Croft is more like a mixture of Indiana Jones and Duke Nukem: Hot body, badass (two guns at once), and cool sunglasses. https://64.media.tumblr.com/b3ac6a261a46a4be130b8a908f1f5e8e/tumblr_oadefqjGfV1qkq7tbo1_640.jpg https://64.media.tumblr.com/b3ac6a261a46a4be130b8a908f1f5e8e... Yes, her figure is one property that makes her stand out, but the others were equally important. In fact, sexy video game woman are nothing new, there have been many before Lara, and with far more revealing outfits. An example is the character from the Brandish series: https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Brandish_Cover_PC98_5583.JPG https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Brandish_Cover... https://cdn.mobygames.com/covers/3676084-brandish-2-the-planet-buster-snes-front-cover.jpg https://cdn.mobygames.com/covers/3676084-brandish-2-the-plan... I don't even know her name. It was never a well-known character. It seems gamers don't care a lot about mere "sex symbols".
- cubefox 3y ago
  Yeah, that argument is simply misguided. It's like me demanding, as a man, to change male characters in Sailor Moon, Felicity, or 50 Shades of Grey. Those male characters behave (and sometimes look) like female fantasies of men, not like men view themselves. But that doesn't give me any right to demand changing them, after all, they are created for girls/women. I'm not the intended recipient! For the same reason it is absurd for feminists like Goulet to demand changing Lara Croft. Those feminists weren't in the main audience in the first place. They could have ignored Tomb Raider like most guys ignored Sailor Moon.
  - pavlov 3y ago
    The difference is that there are tons of male characters in anime and Hollywood movies, but there were no female characters in games except this one.
    - cubefox 3y ago
      Well, is it more likely that the lack of female main characters caused few girls to play videogames, or that the lack of videogame playing girls caused the lack of female main characters? Arguably the latter, since boys form also the majority at most games without any main character. Boys just like video games more, it's not that alleged sexism sacres the girls away.
      - tbrownaw 3y ago
        > most games without any main character Candy crush? Bejeweled? That farm thing on FB a while back?
        mrob 3y ago
        Male dominated genres that don't usually have main characters: 4X, RTS, racing, rhythm, shmup, competitive puzzle, realistic sim Female dominated: casual puzzle, social sim The rise of mobile games made those last two extremely popular, but that wasn't the case back when Tomb Raider was released.
cubefox 3y ago
Duke Nukem is a good example. He also had somewhat exaggerated proportions, but it suited him, because his face didn't look realistic either. Just like Lara, who also had a slight comic-like look. It's absurd to imply (like Michelle Goulet in the article) that having female characters with exaggerated proportions automatically means "disrespecting" woman. She also says that designers may "throw in all the sexuality you want" while insisting at the same time that characters must always retain realistic proportions. Impressive double think. Anyway, the meme that boys at the time commonly viewed Lara Croft as "sex object" is absurd. We did not. Sorry to say it like that, but that's just some feminists like Goulet being a bit paranoid. Boys would have fantasized about someone like Jennifer Lopez, not Lara Croft.
- avereveard 3y ago
  Even if the movement is legitimate and has important goals to achieve, self fashioned movement spokespersons whom made a living about being angry can't stop being angry at things, what else are they supposed to do, mission accomplished, pack up and go to the unemployment queues? Of course they will keep finding new details or interpretations to complain about.
  - BingLee 3y ago
    [flagged]
- CharlesW 3y ago
  > Anyway, the meme that boys at the time commonly viewed Lara Croft as "sex object" is absurd. We did not. You may not have, but everyone else did. Designer Toby Gard literally designed her to appeal sexually to male gamers in order to offset the fear that they otherwise wouldn't want to play a female main character. Early Lara Croft had ridiculous proportions. Her outfit is a t-shirt and booty shorts, for goodness' sake. Gamers of the time were obsessed with the idea of a "Nude Raider" cheat. https://gaming-urban-legends.fandom.com/wiki/Nude_Raider https://gaming-urban-legends.fandom.com/wiki/Nude_Raider "Ever since Tomb Raider's release, its heroine, Lara Croft, has been seen as a major sex symbol in the video game industry, and that has been a large focus of the franchise's marketing."

Given how DNF has seemingly sank that franchise, don’t give them any ideas!

The article touches on this topic. Why should Lara Croft be changed towards a more realistic female shape when pseudo-Schwarzeneggers abound in games? ’On the other hand, the same male gamers had for years been seeing images of almost equally unattainable masculine perfection on their screens, all bulging biceps and chiseled abs. How was this different? Many sensed that it was different, somehow, but few could articulate why. Michelle Goulet of the website Game Girlz perhaps said it best: Lara was “the man’s ideal image of a girl, not a girl’s ideal image of a girl.” The inverse was not true of all those warrior hunks: they were “based on the body image that is ideal to a lot of guys, not girls. They are nowhere near my ideal man.” The male gaze, that is to say, was the arbiter in both cases.’

FredPret 3y ago
Nowadays there are more women in gaming, but when Lara Croft first appeared, it would have been odd to expect anything but a male gaze from a popluation of nearly 100% male developers and customers.
- cubefox 3y ago
  And "male gaze" wasn't a deciding factor anyway. Lara Croft wasn't even viewed as a sex object like some singers or actresses.
  - zztop44 3y ago
    If you think this you weren’t a middle school boy when Tomb Raider came out :)
    - pezezin 3y ago
      Oh man, I still remember the day my parents found my drawings of naked Lara. Not that I was any good at drawing, I just used the old technique of tracing the original pictures on a thin piece of paper, adding a dash of teenage horniness in the process.
  - Endy 3y ago
    Did you not see the Maxim "photoshoot"? Lara and Aki Ross from Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within were both covergirls of Maxim, rendered in underwear or swimwear. Or, perhaps you disregard the fact that the most persistent rumor about Tomb Raider 1 & 2 was the "nude code"? Lara Croft was the nerd equivalent of Marilyn Monroe and Madonna, at the same time. She was the gaming sex symbol.
    - cubefox 3y ago
      Gamers would be interested in a nude code for any attractive female main character of any well-known video game whatsoever. Just like men would like to see even a politician like AOC (like any reasonably attractive celebrity woman) in Playboy. But that doesn't make AOC a sex symbol. Lara Croft is more like a mixture of Indiana Jones and Duke Nukem: Hot body, badass (two guns at once), and cool sunglasses. https://64.media.tumblr.com/b3ac6a261a46a4be130b8a908f1f5e8e/tumblr_oadefqjGfV1qkq7tbo1_640.jpg https://64.media.tumblr.com/b3ac6a261a46a4be130b8a908f1f5e8e... Yes, her figure is one property that makes her stand out, but the others were equally important. In fact, sexy video game woman are nothing new, there have been many before Lara, and with far more revealing outfits. An example is the character from the Brandish series: https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Brandish_Cover_PC98_5583.JPG https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Brandish_Cover... https://cdn.mobygames.com/covers/3676084-brandish-2-the-planet-buster-snes-front-cover.jpg https://cdn.mobygames.com/covers/3676084-brandish-2-the-plan... I don't even know her name. It was never a well-known character. It seems gamers don't care a lot about mere "sex symbols".
cubefox 3y ago
Yeah, that argument is simply misguided. It's like me demanding, as a man, to change male characters in Sailor Moon, Felicity, or 50 Shades of Grey. Those male characters behave (and sometimes look) like female fantasies of men, not like men view themselves. But that doesn't give me any right to demand changing them, after all, they are created for girls/women. I'm not the intended recipient! For the same reason it is absurd for feminists like Goulet to demand changing Lara Croft. Those feminists weren't in the main audience in the first place. They could have ignored Tomb Raider like most guys ignored Sailor Moon.
- pavlov 3y ago
  The difference is that there are tons of male characters in anime and Hollywood movies, but there were no female characters in games except this one.
  - cubefox 3y ago
    Well, is it more likely that the lack of female main characters caused few girls to play videogames, or that the lack of videogame playing girls caused the lack of female main characters? Arguably the latter, since boys form also the majority at most games without any main character. Boys just like video games more, it's not that alleged sexism sacres the girls away.
    - tbrownaw 3y ago
      > most games without any main character Candy crush? Bejeweled? That farm thing on FB a while back?
      - mrob 3y ago
        Male dominated genres that don't usually have main characters: 4X, RTS, racing, rhythm, shmup, competitive puzzle, realistic sim Female dominated: casual puzzle, social sim The rise of mobile games made those last two extremely popular, but that wasn't the case back when Tomb Raider was released.

cubefox 3y ago

Duke Nukem is a good example. He also had somewhat exaggerated proportions, but it suited him, because his face didn't look realistic either. Just like Lara, who also had a slight comic-like look. It's absurd to imply (like Michelle Goulet in the article) that having female characters with exaggerated proportions automatically means "disrespecting" woman. She also says that designers may "throw in all the sexuality you want" while insisting at the same time that characters must always retain realistic proportions. Impressive double think. Anyway, the meme that boys at the time commonly viewed Lara Croft as "sex object" is absurd. We did not. Sorry to say it like that, but that's just some feminists like Goulet being a bit paranoid. Boys would have fantasized about someone like Jennifer Lopez, not Lara Croft.

avereveard 3y ago
Even if the movement is legitimate and has important goals to achieve, self fashioned movement spokespersons whom made a living about being angry can't stop being angry at things, what else are they supposed to do, mission accomplished, pack up and go to the unemployment queues? Of course they will keep finding new details or interpretations to complain about.
- BingLee 3y ago
  [flagged]
CharlesW 3y ago
> Anyway, the meme that boys at the time commonly viewed Lara Croft as "sex object" is absurd. We did not. You may not have, but everyone else did. Designer Toby Gard literally designed her to appeal sexually to male gamers in order to offset the fear that they otherwise wouldn't want to play a female main character. Early Lara Croft had ridiculous proportions. Her outfit is a t-shirt and booty shorts, for goodness' sake. Gamers of the time were obsessed with the idea of a "Nude Raider" cheat. https://gaming-urban-legends.fandom.com/wiki/Nude_Raider https://gaming-urban-legends.fandom.com/wiki/Nude_Raider "Ever since Tomb Raider's release, its heroine, Lara Croft, has been seen as a major sex symbol in the video game industry, and that has been a large focus of the franchise's marketing."