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We've tested housing first programs in SF. https://twitter.com/garrytan/status/1659972231328583680?s=20 https://twitter.com/garrytan/status/1659972231328583680?

We've tested housing first programs in SF. https://twitter.com/garrytan/status/1659972231328583680?s=20 https://twitter.com/garrytan/status/1659972231328583680?s=20 25% died (overdose on drugs), and 21% returned to the streets. We need to recognize that drug addicts don't make rational decisions for themselves. We shouldn't leave them on the streets to do drugs, we shouldn't give them free housing to do drugs, we should put them in rehab. If they don't want to go to rehab, charge them with possession of illegal substances and put them in a prison rehab system. This type of life crippling drug addiction shouldn't be tolerated. I recognize that not all homeless are drug addicts, they should be supported in a much different way than we support drug addicts.

worik 3y ago
> 25% died (overdose on drugs), and 21% returned to the streets You are cherry picking statistics Housing first has been shown over and over again to be a better solution than expecting people to recover their lives before they get any help What are your counterfactuals? How many die with no help? Where do those numbers even come from? Basically I am calling this out as disinformation. Lies
- meowtimemania 3y ago
  I'm quoting a tweet from the president of Y Combinator. I'm not against giving people housing, but I think there needs to be a sobriety requirement. Why would putting someone in a house cure them of their addiction? Put them through rehab, then give them a house when they leave rehab.
  - kristofferR 3y ago
    They use drugs because they live on the streets. Treating a symptom instead of the cause is stupid, especially if the symptom (drug use) will likely return as soon as they return to the streets after rehab/prison.
    - smsm42 3y ago
      A lot of them uses drugs because they are mentally ill, and this is their way to cope with it. People that aren't dangerous to anybody but themselves would not get treated involuntarily, and they would not follow voluntary treatments because drugs are easier. Living on the streets is a consequence too - it's hard to hold a job while being mentally ill addict, it's hard to pay rent while having no job, and it's hard to follow any rules framework which would be in place for a housing solution while being all the above.
      - kristofferR 3y ago
        I'm not arguing that the homeless should only receive housing, I'm saying that any other help you give them likely won't help unless you provide housing. And that help should include mental healthcare and a support structure.
        smsm42 3y ago
        The social culture in our society (and especially in circles that would be implementing the support structure) leans heavily towards "it's not your fault, you are magnificent, you do you, there's no consequences whatsoever whatever you do". This approach is not going to work for the vast majority of these cases. There would be consequences, but since the "support" people will refuse to be the bad guys and implement the consequences, the consequences will come in the form of these programs turning into disastrous nightmares - just as various "housing hotels" turned into disastrous filthy drug-filled rat-infested nightmares. Throwing billions at the problem might provide a nice income to a number of GONGO staff and make them feel excellent because "they are doing something", but otherwise will not do much.
    - pedrosorio 3y ago
      Parent didn’t suggest returning them to the streets after rehab. They said give them free housing after rehab. That being said, addiction is not easily cured with or without free housing, if the substance of addiction is easily available nearby (alcohol, drugs, casinos) without additional support systems.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- kristofferR 3y ago
  This is a good article, with his cherry picked stats: https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2022/san-francisco-sros/ https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2022/san-francisco-sros... Housing First is clearly the best strategy to solve homelessness, but it should not be confused with Housing Only, which the article has plenty of examples of. Using a mismanaged Housing First program to argue against Housing First is also borderline absurd, I agree with you there.
ramblenode 3y ago
Rehab might be one of the least effective solutions of all [0]. If it's inpatient then you are paying for housing anyway, but without any of the benefits of stability that would allow someone to use it as a springboard to get a job. [0] https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2018/02/15/opioid-treatment-recovery-bachaar-arnaout https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2018/02/15/opioid-treatment...
- HDThoreaun 3y ago
  The rehab is just the first step of a successful housing first solution. The homeless should not be given homes until they are sobor. Once the rehab is complete they get housing as long as they stay sobor. If they can't they get imprisoned.
p_j_w 3y ago
>25% died (overdose on drugs), and 21% returned to the streets. How many of those 25% would've died on the street? Do you have any numbers to put that into context? A 54% reduction in homeless on the streets sounds like a great start to me, though, as do people dying in a room instead of on a sidewalk.

worik 3y ago

> 25% died (overdose on drugs), and 21% returned to the streets You are cherry picking statistics Housing first has been shown over and over again to be a better solution than expecting people to recover their lives before they get any help What are your counterfactuals? How many die with no help? Where do those numbers even come from? Basically I am calling this out as disinformation. Lies

meowtimemania 3y ago
I'm quoting a tweet from the president of Y Combinator. I'm not against giving people housing, but I think there needs to be a sobriety requirement. Why would putting someone in a house cure them of their addiction? Put them through rehab, then give them a house when they leave rehab.
- kristofferR 3y ago
  They use drugs because they live on the streets. Treating a symptom instead of the cause is stupid, especially if the symptom (drug use) will likely return as soon as they return to the streets after rehab/prison.
  - smsm42 3y ago
    A lot of them uses drugs because they are mentally ill, and this is their way to cope with it. People that aren't dangerous to anybody but themselves would not get treated involuntarily, and they would not follow voluntary treatments because drugs are easier. Living on the streets is a consequence too - it's hard to hold a job while being mentally ill addict, it's hard to pay rent while having no job, and it's hard to follow any rules framework which would be in place for a housing solution while being all the above.
    - kristofferR 3y ago
      I'm not arguing that the homeless should only receive housing, I'm saying that any other help you give them likely won't help unless you provide housing. And that help should include mental healthcare and a support structure.
      - smsm42 3y ago
        The social culture in our society (and especially in circles that would be implementing the support structure) leans heavily towards "it's not your fault, you are magnificent, you do you, there's no consequences whatsoever whatever you do". This approach is not going to work for the vast majority of these cases. There would be consequences, but since the "support" people will refuse to be the bad guys and implement the consequences, the consequences will come in the form of these programs turning into disastrous nightmares - just as various "housing hotels" turned into disastrous filthy drug-filled rat-infested nightmares. Throwing billions at the problem might provide a nice income to a number of GONGO staff and make them feel excellent because "they are doing something", but otherwise will not do much.
  - pedrosorio 3y ago
    Parent didn’t suggest returning them to the streets after rehab. They said give them free housing after rehab. That being said, addiction is not easily cured with or without free housing, if the substance of addiction is easily available nearby (alcohol, drugs, casinos) without additional support systems.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
kristofferR 3y ago
This is a good article, with his cherry picked stats: https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2022/san-francisco-sros/ https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2022/san-francisco-sros... Housing First is clearly the best strategy to solve homelessness, but it should not be confused with Housing Only, which the article has plenty of examples of. Using a mismanaged Housing First program to argue against Housing First is also borderline absurd, I agree with you there.

ramblenode 3y ago

Rehab might be one of the least effective solutions of all [0]. If it's inpatient then you are paying for housing anyway, but without any of the benefits of stability that would allow someone to use it as a springboard to get a job. [0] https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2018/02/15/opioid-treatment-recovery-bachaar-arnaout https://www.wbur.org/cognoscenti/2018/02/15/opioid-treatment...

HDThoreaun 3y ago
The rehab is just the first step of a successful housing first solution. The homeless should not be given homes until they are sobor. Once the rehab is complete they get housing as long as they stay sobor. If they can't they get imprisoned.

p_j_w 3y ago

>25% died (overdose on drugs), and 21% returned to the streets. How many of those 25% would've died on the street? Do you have any numbers to put that into context? A 54% reduction in homeless on the streets sounds like a great start to me, though, as do people dying in a room instead of on a sidewalk.