4 ms·

Are _you_ saying that it's unfair, or are you speaking for the working class?

meowtimemania 3y ago
I'm open to giving someone free housing if they aren't on drugs. I just can't wrap my head around why we should reward people with free housing for being drug addicts. I have lots of sympathy for the drug-free homeless community. I think the drug addicted should be put in treatment programs or charged for possession of these drugs so that they can be treated in prison. I'm angry that we allow people to smoke fentanyl out in the open in SF. It's bad for everyone including those who are addicted.
- kristofferR 3y ago
  A lot of homeless people, perhaps the majority, use drugs as a consequence of not having a place to live. Think about it, it's obviously much easier to use escapist drugs when you live on the streets. Not only do you want to escape, you are also surrounded by drugs and other misery. You are thinking about it the opposite way. In reality, you can't get people to stop using drugs while keeping them on the streets.
  - meowtimemania 3y ago
    I think there needs to be some kind of sobriety requirement. Maybe put them through rehab, and then give them housing after they leave rehab. I saw this tweet from the Y combinator ceo that says 25% of those in a permanent housing program in SF died. (I assume of overdose). Getting people housed shouldn’t be the priority, the priority is getting them drug free. https://twitter.com/garrytan/status/1659972231328583680?s=20 https://twitter.com/garrytan/status/1659972231328583680?s=20
    - boucher 3y ago
      Do you know how effective rehab is for people who don’t go voluntarily? The unfortunate reality of drug addiction is that even for people who want out it’s very hard. For people who don’t, it’s quite a lot harder. If there was a magic pill that cured addiction I think we might make different policy choices, but given that there isn’t I don’t see how your plan can really work.
      - meowtimemania 3y ago
        There aren’t any good solutions to this problem. IMO we should enforce existing laws around the possession of illegal substances. These drugs are a total drain on society. What message are we sending when we allow people to smoke fentanyl on the bart with no consequences?
    - kristofferR 3y ago
      Read this article and I think you'll understand the issue better: https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2022/san-francisco-sros/ https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2022/san-francisco-sros... Just giving the homeless a moldy and bug infested tiny room without any additional help isn't going to help much. It's "housing first", not "housing only". I don't think you understand addiction and rehab, frankly. Getting people to stop using drugs is quite easy, just keep them away from it for a while. You can send anyone to prison or rehab, and they'll stop using drugs for a while. The hard part is getting people from restarting to use drugs once you let them free, and you can't even hope to do that successfully unless they are motivated themselves, which they won't be if they live on the street.
    - Clubber 3y ago
      >I think there needs to be some kind of sobriety requirement. Maybe put them through rehab, and then give them housing after they leave rehab. While I agree, there are many shelters that people don't use because they don't want to be sober, which defeats the purpose of reducing homelessness.
      - meowtimemania 3y ago
        If they possess illegal drugs, why not prosecute them and put them in the prison system? It’s bad to have people smoking fentanyl on the sidewalks as if it’s a normal part of society.
- knowledge-clay 3y ago
  > I'm open to giving someone free housing if they aren't on drugs Sobriety is not a condition of housing. Many housed people drink and do drugs and don't get kicked out of their apartments for it. Why should we apply a harsher standard to our most vulnerable population?
  - unethical_ban 3y ago
    The assumption is that drugs perpetuate the illness/uselessness of the homeless. If you have a home and can manage to afford it on your own, you get the privilege of drug consumption (within the law). If it is causing you to be unhoused or unhinged and the rest of the community is putting money into you having a place to sleep, it seems reasonable to impose some standards of behavior.
  - hdisllcn 3y ago
    You’re welcome to do whatever you want at your own expense. If you can’t function to a degree where society needs to clothe you, feed you and house you; it should come with strings attached. Resources are finite and “the vulnerable population” isn’t entitled to everyone’s else labor.
    - knowledge-clay 3y ago
      My point is simply that policy should be based on what is effective and humane. Keeping people housed only based on the contingency of their sobriety is neither. Under no circumstances is it better for someone to be unhoused than housed. Housing should be a human right, full stop.
      - unethical_ban 3y ago
        The thing is: How do we encourage or enforce good behavior? At what point do we insist that an individual try not to be a burden, and to try to be a decent participant in society? That could be as little as "don't be a public nuisance and help around the housing complex once or twice a week". If there is no standard for behavior or "giving back" to earn one's keep, bad actors will bring everyone down.

I'm open to giving someone free housing if they aren't on drugs. I just can't wrap my head around why we should reward people with free housing for being drug addicts. I have lots of sympathy for the drug-free homeless community. I think the drug addicted should be put in treatment programs or charged for possession of these drugs so that they can be treated in prison. I'm angry that we allow people to smoke fentanyl out in the open in SF. It's bad for everyone including those who are addicted.

kristofferR 3y ago
A lot of homeless people, perhaps the majority, use drugs as a consequence of not having a place to live. Think about it, it's obviously much easier to use escapist drugs when you live on the streets. Not only do you want to escape, you are also surrounded by drugs and other misery. You are thinking about it the opposite way. In reality, you can't get people to stop using drugs while keeping them on the streets.
- meowtimemania 3y ago
  I think there needs to be some kind of sobriety requirement. Maybe put them through rehab, and then give them housing after they leave rehab. I saw this tweet from the Y combinator ceo that says 25% of those in a permanent housing program in SF died. (I assume of overdose). Getting people housed shouldn’t be the priority, the priority is getting them drug free. https://twitter.com/garrytan/status/1659972231328583680?s=20 https://twitter.com/garrytan/status/1659972231328583680?s=20
  - boucher 3y ago
    Do you know how effective rehab is for people who don’t go voluntarily? The unfortunate reality of drug addiction is that even for people who want out it’s very hard. For people who don’t, it’s quite a lot harder. If there was a magic pill that cured addiction I think we might make different policy choices, but given that there isn’t I don’t see how your plan can really work.
    - meowtimemania 3y ago
      There aren’t any good solutions to this problem. IMO we should enforce existing laws around the possession of illegal substances. These drugs are a total drain on society. What message are we sending when we allow people to smoke fentanyl on the bart with no consequences?
  - kristofferR 3y ago
    Read this article and I think you'll understand the issue better: https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2022/san-francisco-sros/ https://www.sfchronicle.com/projects/2022/san-francisco-sros... Just giving the homeless a moldy and bug infested tiny room without any additional help isn't going to help much. It's "housing first", not "housing only". I don't think you understand addiction and rehab, frankly. Getting people to stop using drugs is quite easy, just keep them away from it for a while. You can send anyone to prison or rehab, and they'll stop using drugs for a while. The hard part is getting people from restarting to use drugs once you let them free, and you can't even hope to do that successfully unless they are motivated themselves, which they won't be if they live on the street.
  - Clubber 3y ago
    >I think there needs to be some kind of sobriety requirement. Maybe put them through rehab, and then give them housing after they leave rehab. While I agree, there are many shelters that people don't use because they don't want to be sober, which defeats the purpose of reducing homelessness.
    - meowtimemania 3y ago
      If they possess illegal drugs, why not prosecute them and put them in the prison system? It’s bad to have people smoking fentanyl on the sidewalks as if it’s a normal part of society.
knowledge-clay 3y ago
> I'm open to giving someone free housing if they aren't on drugs Sobriety is not a condition of housing. Many housed people drink and do drugs and don't get kicked out of their apartments for it. Why should we apply a harsher standard to our most vulnerable population?
- unethical_ban 3y ago
  The assumption is that drugs perpetuate the illness/uselessness of the homeless. If you have a home and can manage to afford it on your own, you get the privilege of drug consumption (within the law). If it is causing you to be unhoused or unhinged and the rest of the community is putting money into you having a place to sleep, it seems reasonable to impose some standards of behavior.
- hdisllcn 3y ago
  You’re welcome to do whatever you want at your own expense. If you can’t function to a degree where society needs to clothe you, feed you and house you; it should come with strings attached. Resources are finite and “the vulnerable population” isn’t entitled to everyone’s else labor.
  - knowledge-clay 3y ago
    My point is simply that policy should be based on what is effective and humane. Keeping people housed only based on the contingency of their sobriety is neither. Under no circumstances is it better for someone to be unhoused than housed. Housing should be a human right, full stop.
    - unethical_ban 3y ago
      The thing is: How do we encourage or enforce good behavior? At what point do we insist that an individual try not to be a burden, and to try to be a decent participant in society? That could be as little as "don't be a public nuisance and help around the housing complex once or twice a week". If there is no standard for behavior or "giving back" to earn one's keep, bad actors will bring everyone down.