9 ms·

Effect of repeated low-level red light on myopia prevention

124 points by rq1 3y ago

stevebmark 3y ago
Interesting, I wonder what the mechanism of action could be. Over-exposure to blue light is potentially related to macular degeneration, if blue light causes axial elongation (getting more nearsighted, eye getting more football shaped) that could potentially be related, since more nearsighted eyes are at higher risk for macula issues. There have also been links to red light use on the macula improving macular health, but not axial changes. I also wonder, but it seems less likely, if the effect is related to defocusing of the eye, from intentionally not being in front of a screen for 3 minutes. Holding things close to the face, including computer, phone, and book use, causes nearsightnedness from emmetropization (NOT from muscle use, muscle strain has nothing to do with vision issues).
- someweirdperson 3y ago
  > I also wonder, but it seems less likely, if the effect is related to defocusing of the eye, from intentionally not being in front of a screen for 3 minutes. Unfortunately, the control group did nothing, instead of looking at something far away for 3 minutes, that is not red light. Another interesting control group could have used light at the other end of the visible range.
- elif 3y ago
  I think the prevailing theory is it's not so much about 'what red light does', but 'what red light deprivation causes.' the improvement is the human body behaving in the conditions it developed for. Light therapy is providing the body with what it is deprived of more every generation as we move indoors and replace incandescent sources with LED light sources.
  - stevebmark 3y ago
    I despise the discussions that come out of talking about myopia. Everyone completely guesses at how things work, and so many people chime talking about things they don't understand. Mitochondria specifically respond to red light. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996814/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996814/
- myself248 3y ago
  Okay, I've noticed that red-text-on-blue-background or vice-versa is super hard to read, because our eyes have quite a bit of chromatic aberration and can't focus on both ends of the spectrum at the same time. So is it perhaps just training the eye to focus on the red end rather than the blue end, as a sort of exercise? (Also, did you ever notice that optometrists' signs are always deep blue, and thus hard to focus on? Ope, can't even see the sign, better head in and get an exam!)
- aatd86 3y ago
  >(NOT from muscle use, muscle strain has nothing to do with vision issues). Eye strain that causes pseudo-pyopia is gznerally thought to be triggered by ciliary spasms. The ciliary muscle, as its name indicates, is a muscle. So I'm a bit confused here?
rngname22 3y ago
You gotta dig into supplement 1 to find the treatment: ") Input power <100VA, input voltage: AC10V-240V, 50Hz/60Hz 版本号 8 : 2.0，20200120 版 2) Low-level single-wavelength red-light wavelength: 650nm±10nm 3) Diameter of low-level single-wavelength red-light cursor: 7mm±3mm, spot at the observation port: 10mm ± 2mm 4) Light source output power: 2.0mW±0.5mW; At a distance of 100mm: 1.07-1.42mw ...the intervention group are treated with the intervention instrument twice a day from Monday to Friday, three minutes each time, with an interval of at least 4 hours (morning break before school and afternoon break before school), under the supervision of the school teacher/coordinator in addition to routine study and life. All children have a unique corresponding personal account and password. They need to swipe the card and log in the system for verification before starting the intervention device.... the optical energy will stop automatically after three minutes of use, leave the blue eye patch, close your eyes and rest for 3-5 minutes until the light spots before your eyes disappear." ^ So it sounds like the students might even have light spots (temporary blindness)? for a few minutes after the treatment. No use of near-infrared (in the 850nm range), only red light (in the 650 range), so if attempting to recreate at home make sure the red light therapy device is in 650 not red + infrared combination as many are. Though if you Google you can find plenty of studies and resources suggesting NIR can be safe and effective for the eyes as well. I use red and NIR for collagen boosting on the skin but had until now been too afraid to directly expose my closed eyelids w/o protective goggles as I noticed light spots (I use a close-up helmet). Taking the leap of faith and using light therapy to the point that I have light spots for a few minutes after treatment as described in the study is a leap of faith that I'm afraid may be beyond me.
- BobbyJo 3y ago
  I'm not a doctor, but I believe the mechanism that causes spots isn't harmful. It's a form of exhaustion of the sensing cells and doesn't necessarily damage them. Damage really only happens when you get photon burns, which I don't think is possible with closed eyelids and a conventional light-source.
  - arghwhat 3y ago
    However, you must be very careful around possible IR or UV sources as there will be no reflex to keep your eyes closed, look away or close your pupils! You will at most feel the warmth of the light source in the skin of your face, at which point it is likely too late. If intentionally sticking your head in a strong light source, wear eye protection.
swamp40 3y ago
Would love to solve this one day. Almost positive its a recent phenomenon. Would like to know that as well. Tesla's father chastised him for reading by candlelight. Thought it would "spoil his eyes".
- moron4hire 3y ago
  Luxottica will kill it if it ever comes close to becoming a viable treatment.
  - jtwaleson 3y ago
    It's such a horrible monopoly. Please try to purchase your glasses at non affiliated stores.
  - qzw 3y ago
    Or will they have a monopoly on the therapeutic red light glasses that all kids will need? After all, the market could be even bigger than now because all parents would want to make sure their kids get their daily dose of red light.
  - mywittyname 3y ago
    Did they kill corrective surgery?
epicureanideal 3y ago
I wonder if it can cure adult myopia or just prevent some of it in kids? If the study were done longer would it prevent more than 54%?
- stevebmark 3y ago
  There is no known cure for adult nor childhood myopia. Axial elongation is permanent. It can only be slowed, and maybe stopped, but not reversed.
  - vr46 3y ago
    Miyosmart lenses for kids have proven to be excellent so far, but I have become happy with my myopic superpower of magnification. Just hope my eyes don’t fall apart internally as I get old.
  - cosmorider 3y ago
    Wrong. Look up endmyopia.org and watch this video: https://youtu.be/x5Efg42-Qn0 https://youtu.be/x5Efg42-Qn0
    - stevebmark 3y ago
      That's great that a philosophy major has a blog and a Facebook group for his pet theory. There is no science here. I hate how vapid the this space is, there is so much guesswork and making things up. His comment about wearing underpowered lenses for example, has been repeatedly shown to either have no effect or worsen myopia https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cxo.12978 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cxo.12978 His idea that you can look at slightly doubled things in defocus and work to "fuse" them is insane, he just did something on a walk by chance and then somehow claimed it's part of the process. Again, as far as science knows, there is no way to reverse myopia. It's like asking how to make your liver less elongated. The tissue has grown into the shape it's in, it doesn't reshape itself over time.
      - aatd86 3y ago
pnw 3y ago
There was a recent HN thread on a similar topic. I bought the glasses from https://www.eye-power.co.uk/ https://www.eye-power.co.uk/ mentioned in the thread. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34609625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34609625
- dotancohen 3y ago
  How long have you been using it? Have you noticed any effects?
  - pnw 3y ago
    Only for a few weeks. No obvious effects yet. They are 670nm which is close to this study (650nm?)
    - moffkalast 3y ago
      Yeah I also bought a "photo red" 665nm 1W diode after that last thread, stared at it occasionally at low power and never noticed any difference. I guess it's one of those things you gotta do for several decades and unless you leave one eye as a control there's nothing to compare to anyway.
- rwl4 3y ago
  I ordered one about a year ago and forgot all about it. After a few apologies for the lateness of the shipping, the order never arrived. This comment reminded me, so I just emailed them to see what's up.
- flanbiscuit 3y ago
  I also bought these and I used them twice and then have forgotten all about them until right now. I'll have to put a reminder to start using them again, it's only 3 minutes once a week.
vr46 3y ago
Heh, once again, my old optician John Rose in London is some years ahead of the curve, I’ll be darned. He’s had this red light therapy bed installed at his practice for a few years now. https://johnroseeyecare.co.uk/services/wellbeing/light-therapy/ https://johnroseeyecare.co.uk/services/wellbeing/light-thera...
anonymousiam 3y ago
I wonder if there's a similar study that simply has the kids stay outdoors in natural sunlight for some number of hours per day?
- nyargh 3y ago
  Two such studies are cited in the paper https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23462271 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23462271 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26372583 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26372583
- jerlam 3y ago
  China, where the prevalence of myopia is near 90% for high-schoolers, has mandated less screen time, less homework, and required outdoor time. It appears to have some effect as there's a small decrease in myopia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YWbR8K0jT4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YWbR8K0jT4
leobg 3y ago
Read somewhere of an old lady who kept her eyes sharp by facing the sun with closed eyelids every day. Don’t remember the source, but I think it might even have been on HN. Anyone else?
dmitrygr 3y ago
Curious that this is considered new. When I was a kid in Russia (20 years ago), we had treatment for myopia that was basically applying a tube with a lot of red lights in it to your eyes for 3-4 minutes, 4 times a day.
- mywittyname 3y ago
  The mechanisms for developing myopia have been pretty well understood for a while now. I suspect the lack of an investigation into prevention had more to do with people not really caring until now. I bet that myopia prevalence in China is approaching 100%, especially for "children of the lockdown", and so it's getting critical attention as a public health crisis. There were doctors who had technique for preventing/halting myopia from developing in children, but it wasn't this mainstream thing, and it certainly wasn't pushed on people.
neves 3y ago
Should a blue light filter in screens make any difference?
- DiabloD3 3y ago
  No. All the blue light from monitors and phones are simply too dim to be part of any physiological changes. All the papers that people quote that are of both quality and actually show anything involve blue light far brighter than your monitor; all the papers that are quality but involve relevant brightness show no effect. There are also papers of low quality, which should not be mentioned, but seem to provide the backbone of the myth.
shrubble 3y ago
Wonder if being gathered around a fire each night kept hunter/gatherer people from developing myopia?
cubefox 3y ago
These results sound great. I fear only that it will take a very long time before any of this becomes an approved treatment. They probably require more studies, and for that first money needs to be organized. And then the study itself needs to be organized. And finally conducted over several years. And then perhaps they require yet another, bigger study. By that time millions of kids around the world will be grown up to have myopia. Too late to be treated.
- elif 3y ago
  Approved for red light? There are no restrictions on buying red LED's.. Whose approval are you waiting on? Skin health, scar healing, muscle pain relief, take your pick of reasons to use R/IR light therapy. It takes hardly any effort.
  - cubefox 3y ago
    See other thread on how this works. I'm sure parents won't buy such devices without some very official stamp. Until then they are probably also forbidden to market it as what it is. It anyway looks like something that should be provided by school and kindergarten.
dingleberry 3y ago
how about plus lens therapy?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
Aulig 3y ago
In my opinion it's not worth it to bother with all of these "tricks". You need to adjust your lifestyle and you'll be able to get rid of myopia the same way you initially got it. Takes years though - I'm down about 3 diopters after 2.5 years. https://wiki.reducedlens.org/wiki/Main_Page https://wiki.reducedlens.org/wiki/Main_Page
- kubanczyk 3y ago
  I didn't have glasses (lens) as a teenager, so I wasn't wearing any up to when I got to about -2.0/-1.5. From that time I was generally wearing glasses more often than not, and my eyesight hasn't dramatically changed. For me your theory simply doesn't hold.
  - Aulig 3y ago
    It's not "my theory" ;) Myopia is usually caused by a combination of lifestyle and lens use. For example looking at a phone 33.33cm away is equivalent to wearing a -3 lens and looking into the distance.
- stevebmark 3y ago
  I don't believe you. There is no known way to reverse myopia.
gpt5 3y ago
If you really care about myopia prevention in children, take a look at Atropine eye drops. Meta-analysis studies show a consistent and powerful impact on treatment groups, to the point of over 0.5 diopter prevention per year.
- sneed_chucker 3y ago
  Very low dose atropine eye drops also help with floaters apparently
herf 3y ago
This result is not inconsistent with the "spend more time outdoors" advice. It's using visible red light that's very intense - more than we see indoors, and mechanisms as simple as "triggers dopamine release in the retina" could explain it.

124 points by rq1 3y ago

Interesting, I wonder what the mechanism of action could be. Over-exposure to blue light is potentially related to macular degeneration, if blue light causes axial elongation (getting more nearsighted, eye getting more football shaped) that could potentially be related, since more nearsighted eyes are at higher risk for macula issues. There have also been links to red light use on the macula improving macular health, but not axial changes. I also wonder, but it seems less likely, if the effect is related to defocusing of the eye, from intentionally not being in front of a screen for 3 minutes. Holding things close to the face, including computer, phone, and book use, causes nearsightnedness from emmetropization (NOT from muscle use, muscle strain has nothing to do with vision issues).

someweirdperson 3y ago
> I also wonder, but it seems less likely, if the effect is related to defocusing of the eye, from intentionally not being in front of a screen for 3 minutes. Unfortunately, the control group did nothing, instead of looking at something far away for 3 minutes, that is not red light. Another interesting control group could have used light at the other end of the visible range.
elif 3y ago
I think the prevailing theory is it's not so much about 'what red light does', but 'what red light deprivation causes.' the improvement is the human body behaving in the conditions it developed for. Light therapy is providing the body with what it is deprived of more every generation as we move indoors and replace incandescent sources with LED light sources.
- stevebmark 3y ago
  I despise the discussions that come out of talking about myopia. Everyone completely guesses at how things work, and so many people chime talking about things they don't understand. Mitochondria specifically respond to red light. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996814/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2996814/
myself248 3y ago
Okay, I've noticed that red-text-on-blue-background or vice-versa is super hard to read, because our eyes have quite a bit of chromatic aberration and can't focus on both ends of the spectrum at the same time. So is it perhaps just training the eye to focus on the red end rather than the blue end, as a sort of exercise? (Also, did you ever notice that optometrists' signs are always deep blue, and thus hard to focus on? Ope, can't even see the sign, better head in and get an exam!)
aatd86 3y ago
>(NOT from muscle use, muscle strain has nothing to do with vision issues). Eye strain that causes pseudo-pyopia is gznerally thought to be triggered by ciliary spasms. The ciliary muscle, as its name indicates, is a muscle. So I'm a bit confused here?

rngname22 3y ago

You gotta dig into supplement 1 to find the treatment: ") Input power <100VA, input voltage: AC10V-240V, 50Hz/60Hz 版本号 8 : 2.0，20200120 版 2) Low-level single-wavelength red-light wavelength: 650nm±10nm 3) Diameter of low-level single-wavelength red-light cursor: 7mm±3mm, spot at the observation port: 10mm ± 2mm 4) Light source output power: 2.0mW±0.5mW; At a distance of 100mm: 1.07-1.42mw ...the intervention group are treated with the intervention instrument twice a day from Monday to Friday, three minutes each time, with an interval of at least 4 hours (morning break before school and afternoon break before school), under the supervision of the school teacher/coordinator in addition to routine study and life. All children have a unique corresponding personal account and password. They need to swipe the card and log in the system for verification before starting the intervention device.... the optical energy will stop automatically after three minutes of use, leave the blue eye patch, close your eyes and rest for 3-5 minutes until the light spots before your eyes disappear." ^ So it sounds like the students might even have light spots (temporary blindness)? for a few minutes after the treatment. No use of near-infrared (in the 850nm range), only red light (in the 650 range), so if attempting to recreate at home make sure the red light therapy device is in 650 not red + infrared combination as many are. Though if you Google you can find plenty of studies and resources suggesting NIR can be safe and effective for the eyes as well. I use red and NIR for collagen boosting on the skin but had until now been too afraid to directly expose my closed eyelids w/o protective goggles as I noticed light spots (I use a close-up helmet). Taking the leap of faith and using light therapy to the point that I have light spots for a few minutes after treatment as described in the study is a leap of faith that I'm afraid may be beyond me.

BobbyJo 3y ago
I'm not a doctor, but I believe the mechanism that causes spots isn't harmful. It's a form of exhaustion of the sensing cells and doesn't necessarily damage them. Damage really only happens when you get photon burns, which I don't think is possible with closed eyelids and a conventional light-source.
- arghwhat 3y ago
  However, you must be very careful around possible IR or UV sources as there will be no reflex to keep your eyes closed, look away or close your pupils! You will at most feel the warmth of the light source in the skin of your face, at which point it is likely too late. If intentionally sticking your head in a strong light source, wear eye protection.

swamp40 3y ago

Would love to solve this one day. Almost positive its a recent phenomenon. Would like to know that as well. Tesla's father chastised him for reading by candlelight. Thought it would "spoil his eyes".

moron4hire 3y ago
Luxottica will kill it if it ever comes close to becoming a viable treatment.
- jtwaleson 3y ago
  It's such a horrible monopoly. Please try to purchase your glasses at non affiliated stores.
- qzw 3y ago
  Or will they have a monopoly on the therapeutic red light glasses that all kids will need? After all, the market could be even bigger than now because all parents would want to make sure their kids get their daily dose of red light.
- mywittyname 3y ago
  Did they kill corrective surgery?

epicureanideal 3y ago

I wonder if it can cure adult myopia or just prevent some of it in kids? If the study were done longer would it prevent more than 54%?

stevebmark 3y ago
There is no known cure for adult nor childhood myopia. Axial elongation is permanent. It can only be slowed, and maybe stopped, but not reversed.
- vr46 3y ago
  Miyosmart lenses for kids have proven to be excellent so far, but I have become happy with my myopic superpower of magnification. Just hope my eyes don’t fall apart internally as I get old.
- cosmorider 3y ago
  Wrong. Look up endmyopia.org and watch this video: https://youtu.be/x5Efg42-Qn0 https://youtu.be/x5Efg42-Qn0
  - stevebmark 3y ago
    That's great that a philosophy major has a blog and a Facebook group for his pet theory. There is no science here. I hate how vapid the this space is, there is so much guesswork and making things up. His comment about wearing underpowered lenses for example, has been repeatedly shown to either have no effect or worsen myopia https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cxo.12978 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/cxo.12978 His idea that you can look at slightly doubled things in defocus and work to "fuse" them is insane, he just did something on a walk by chance and then somehow claimed it's part of the process. Again, as far as science knows, there is no way to reverse myopia. It's like asking how to make your liver less elongated. The tissue has grown into the shape it's in, it doesn't reshape itself over time.
    - aatd86 3y ago

pnw 3y ago

There was a recent HN thread on a similar topic. I bought the glasses from https://www.eye-power.co.uk/ https://www.eye-power.co.uk/ mentioned in the thread. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34609625 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34609625

dotancohen 3y ago
How long have you been using it? Have you noticed any effects?
- pnw 3y ago
  Only for a few weeks. No obvious effects yet. They are 670nm which is close to this study (650nm?)
  - moffkalast 3y ago
    Yeah I also bought a "photo red" 665nm 1W diode after that last thread, stared at it occasionally at low power and never noticed any difference. I guess it's one of those things you gotta do for several decades and unless you leave one eye as a control there's nothing to compare to anyway.
rwl4 3y ago
I ordered one about a year ago and forgot all about it. After a few apologies for the lateness of the shipping, the order never arrived. This comment reminded me, so I just emailed them to see what's up.
flanbiscuit 3y ago
I also bought these and I used them twice and then have forgotten all about them until right now. I'll have to put a reminder to start using them again, it's only 3 minutes once a week.

vr46 3y ago

Heh, once again, my old optician John Rose in London is some years ahead of the curve, I’ll be darned. He’s had this red light therapy bed installed at his practice for a few years now. https://johnroseeyecare.co.uk/services/wellbeing/light-therapy/ https://johnroseeyecare.co.uk/services/wellbeing/light-thera...

anonymousiam 3y ago

I wonder if there's a similar study that simply has the kids stay outdoors in natural sunlight for some number of hours per day?

nyargh 3y ago
Two such studies are cited in the paper https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23462271 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23462271 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26372583 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/26372583
jerlam 3y ago
China, where the prevalence of myopia is near 90% for high-schoolers, has mandated less screen time, less homework, and required outdoor time. It appears to have some effect as there's a small decrease in myopia: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YWbR8K0jT4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3YWbR8K0jT4

leobg 3y ago

Read somewhere of an old lady who kept her eyes sharp by facing the sun with closed eyelids every day. Don’t remember the source, but I think it might even have been on HN. Anyone else?

dmitrygr 3y ago

Curious that this is considered new. When I was a kid in Russia (20 years ago), we had treatment for myopia that was basically applying a tube with a lot of red lights in it to your eyes for 3-4 minutes, 4 times a day.

mywittyname 3y ago
The mechanisms for developing myopia have been pretty well understood for a while now. I suspect the lack of an investigation into prevention had more to do with people not really caring until now. I bet that myopia prevalence in China is approaching 100%, especially for "children of the lockdown", and so it's getting critical attention as a public health crisis. There were doctors who had technique for preventing/halting myopia from developing in children, but it wasn't this mainstream thing, and it certainly wasn't pushed on people.

neves 3y ago

Should a blue light filter in screens make any difference?

DiabloD3 3y ago
No. All the blue light from monitors and phones are simply too dim to be part of any physiological changes. All the papers that people quote that are of both quality and actually show anything involve blue light far brighter than your monitor; all the papers that are quality but involve relevant brightness show no effect. There are also papers of low quality, which should not be mentioned, but seem to provide the backbone of the myth.

shrubble 3y ago

Wonder if being gathered around a fire each night kept hunter/gatherer people from developing myopia?

cubefox 3y ago

These results sound great. I fear only that it will take a very long time before any of this becomes an approved treatment. They probably require more studies, and for that first money needs to be organized. And then the study itself needs to be organized. And finally conducted over several years. And then perhaps they require yet another, bigger study. By that time millions of kids around the world will be grown up to have myopia. Too late to be treated.

elif 3y ago
Approved for red light? There are no restrictions on buying red LED's.. Whose approval are you waiting on? Skin health, scar healing, muscle pain relief, take your pick of reasons to use R/IR light therapy. It takes hardly any effort.
- cubefox 3y ago
  See other thread on how this works. I'm sure parents won't buy such devices without some very official stamp. Until then they are probably also forbidden to market it as what it is. It anyway looks like something that should be provided by school and kindergarten.

dingleberry 3y ago

how about plus lens therapy?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Aulig 3y ago

In my opinion it's not worth it to bother with all of these "tricks". You need to adjust your lifestyle and you'll be able to get rid of myopia the same way you initially got it. Takes years though - I'm down about 3 diopters after 2.5 years. https://wiki.reducedlens.org/wiki/Main_Page https://wiki.reducedlens.org/wiki/Main_Page

kubanczyk 3y ago
I didn't have glasses (lens) as a teenager, so I wasn't wearing any up to when I got to about -2.0/-1.5. From that time I was generally wearing glasses more often than not, and my eyesight hasn't dramatically changed. For me your theory simply doesn't hold.
- Aulig 3y ago
  It's not "my theory" ;) Myopia is usually caused by a combination of lifestyle and lens use. For example looking at a phone 33.33cm away is equivalent to wearing a -3 lens and looking into the distance.
stevebmark 3y ago
I don't believe you. There is no known way to reverse myopia.

gpt5 3y ago

If you really care about myopia prevention in children, take a look at Atropine eye drops. Meta-analysis studies show a consistent and powerful impact on treatment groups, to the point of over 0.5 diopter prevention per year.

sneed_chucker 3y ago
Very low dose atropine eye drops also help with floaters apparently

herf 3y ago

This result is not inconsistent with the "spend more time outdoors" advice. It's using visible red light that's very intense - more than we see indoors, and mechanisms as simple as "triggers dopamine release in the retina" could explain it.