4 ms·

Seems ridiculous to me, why would teens even have peer-reviewed papers, or even papers, to their name? Pretty much only because of this scam - so an automatic

Seems ridiculous to me, why would teens even have peer-reviewed papers, or even papers, to their name? Pretty much only because of this scam - so an automatic 'fraud' signal IMHO.

dangwhy 3y ago
same reason teens "volunteer" in local hospital around their application time . Incentives.
dragonwriter 3y ago
> Seems ridiculous to me, why would teens even have peer-reviewed papers, or even papers, to their name? The same reason they'd have any number of other (real, non-scam) competitive advantages in applications, a combination of aptitude and privilege allowing it to be recognized and to have the opportunity to exploit it.
adamsmith143 3y ago
Plenty of teens have legitimate papers. Probably not first author but it's not hard to believe that an IOM Medalist could contribute to a Mathematics paper or an Intel Science winner would contribute to a Biology paper e.g.
- AlanYx 3y ago
  The tragedy here is that widespread abuses will water down the signal for those few high school students who do legitimately contribute to research. My wife worked in an academic hospital affiliated lab during her PhD, and every summer they had several of these children of lab friends "volunteering" as research assistants. Some were so colossally incompetent, messing up equipment or never showing up, etc. it was a net productivity loss.
  - parpfish 3y ago
    The "i have to volunteer so i can get into med school" crowd was the worst
- tgv 3y ago
  If you think that's a good correlation, they can be accepted just by that fact.
  - adamsmith143 3y ago
    >Seems ridiculous to me, why would teens even have peer-reviewed papers, or even papers, to their name? Pretty much only because of this scam - so an automatic 'fraud' signal IMHO. For reference the comment I was responding to implied that the ONLY way for a teen to be an author on a paper was because of this scam. I was pointing out that that is obviously not the case.
bee_rider 3y ago
A couple prodigies might. But Bayes would probably lean toward fraud pretty heavily. I could also see a highschooler collecting data, maybe? Like, you don’t need a college degree to go down to a local lake and test water quality, right? Would that warrant a spot on the list of authors?
Ekaros 3y ago
We already see issues with paper milling and now we want to extend it to those that don't even have degrees or aren't in one... I really just don't see one as great criteria. Or quality of papers to be anyway decent. And for those geniuses, maybe they could have exceptions made for.
nordsieck 3y ago
> why would teens even have peer-reviewed papers, or even papers, to their name? Keep in mind that when you're talking about the Ivys, they admit a tiny fraction of the people who apply and a huge number of people don't bother applying because (probably correctly) they don't think it's likely they'd get in. Behavior 3-4 std dev out may be quite a bit different than behavior at the median.
parpfish 3y ago
> The prospect appealed to Sophia. “Nowadays, having a publication is kind of a given” for college applicants, she said. “If you don’t have one, you’re going to have to make it up in some other aspect of your application.” This is just so foreign to me. Either that service has very convincing salespeople that have wormed into her brain or she's living in a very odd academic bubble. I've met lots of college students and most of could barely write a coherent by the time they graduate from college. No way is "having a published paper" a pre-req for admission.
- Nasrudith 3y ago
  I say in all seriousness have you seen published academic papers before? Obfuscationism for the sake of flexing has long been a norm.
rsfern 3y ago
A counterpoint - Some of the US national labs have summer internship programs that can lead to legit publications, if the project is scaffolded well and the student works hard. I’m a coauthor on such a paper with a student from a local high school. She did a really great job during her internship and is wrapping up a degree at MIT now.

Seems ridiculous to me, why would teens even have peer-reviewed papers, or even papers, to their name? Pretty much only because of this scam - so an automatic 'fraud' signal IMHO.

dangwhy 3y ago

same reason teens "volunteer" in local hospital around their application time . Incentives.

dragonwriter 3y ago

> Seems ridiculous to me, why would teens even have peer-reviewed papers, or even papers, to their name? The same reason they'd have any number of other (real, non-scam) competitive advantages in applications, a combination of aptitude and privilege allowing it to be recognized and to have the opportunity to exploit it.

adamsmith143 3y ago

Plenty of teens have legitimate papers. Probably not first author but it's not hard to believe that an IOM Medalist could contribute to a Mathematics paper or an Intel Science winner would contribute to a Biology paper e.g.

AlanYx 3y ago
The tragedy here is that widespread abuses will water down the signal for those few high school students who do legitimately contribute to research. My wife worked in an academic hospital affiliated lab during her PhD, and every summer they had several of these children of lab friends "volunteering" as research assistants. Some were so colossally incompetent, messing up equipment or never showing up, etc. it was a net productivity loss.
- parpfish 3y ago
  The "i have to volunteer so i can get into med school" crowd was the worst
tgv 3y ago
If you think that's a good correlation, they can be accepted just by that fact.
- adamsmith143 3y ago
  >Seems ridiculous to me, why would teens even have peer-reviewed papers, or even papers, to their name? Pretty much only because of this scam - so an automatic 'fraud' signal IMHO. For reference the comment I was responding to implied that the ONLY way for a teen to be an author on a paper was because of this scam. I was pointing out that that is obviously not the case.

bee_rider 3y ago

A couple prodigies might. But Bayes would probably lean toward fraud pretty heavily. I could also see a highschooler collecting data, maybe? Like, you don’t need a college degree to go down to a local lake and test water quality, right? Would that warrant a spot on the list of authors?

Ekaros 3y ago

We already see issues with paper milling and now we want to extend it to those that don't even have degrees or aren't in one... I really just don't see one as great criteria. Or quality of papers to be anyway decent. And for those geniuses, maybe they could have exceptions made for.

nordsieck 3y ago

> why would teens even have peer-reviewed papers, or even papers, to their name? Keep in mind that when you're talking about the Ivys, they admit a tiny fraction of the people who apply and a huge number of people don't bother applying because (probably correctly) they don't think it's likely they'd get in. Behavior 3-4 std dev out may be quite a bit different than behavior at the median.

parpfish 3y ago

> The prospect appealed to Sophia. “Nowadays, having a publication is kind of a given” for college applicants, she said. “If you don’t have one, you’re going to have to make it up in some other aspect of your application.” This is just so foreign to me. Either that service has very convincing salespeople that have wormed into her brain or she's living in a very odd academic bubble. I've met lots of college students and most of could barely write a coherent by the time they graduate from college. No way is "having a published paper" a pre-req for admission.

Nasrudith 3y ago
I say in all seriousness have you seen published academic papers before? Obfuscationism for the sake of flexing has long been a norm.

rsfern 3y ago

A counterpoint - Some of the US national labs have summer internship programs that can lead to legit publications, if the project is scaffolded well and the student works hard. I’m a coauthor on such a paper with a student from a local high school. She did a really great job during her internship and is wrapping up a degree at MIT now.