5 ms·

Let me just quality a bit further: homelessness is a failure of the neoliberal ideology (land free markets/privatization never worked, from the enclosures [1] t

Let me just quality a bit further: homelessness is a failure of the neoliberal ideology (land free markets/privatization never worked, from the enclosures [1] to modern times, see Georgism for a solution [2]) and further a failure of the metaphysics of meritocracy based in desert-people's belief "by the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground", which simply isn't the case today, and it certainly won't be the case in a few decades when all the jobs will be gone forever, hopefully. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enclosure [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgism

latency-guy2 3y ago
Homelessness has been on the downtrend for quite a few decades in the US. There is 0 countries in this world who have solved homelessness by the way. I don't think you're correct.
- ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago
  Not sure how much of a downtrend, seems rather stable [1]. There are also 0 countries that implement Georgist policies and most of the countries in the world are directly neoliberal or neoliberal-bent, China, Russia, Saudi Arabia [2], and friends included. Perhaps I am not correct, but what do you think will happen in a few years when we will have a 100 GB neural model able to drive any car in any environment, effectively obliterating 200+ million jobs worldwide? Fairly certain, if we keep the same policies and the same belief-system, homelessness will trend rather high. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/555795/estimated-number-of-homeless-people-in-the-us https://www.statista.com/statistics/555795/estimated-number-... [2] 2018, Abdullah Al-Beraidi, "The Trap of Neoliberalism for Gulf Cooperation Council Countries", https://online.ucpress.edu/caa/article-abstract/11/4/63/25792/The-Trap-of-Neoliberalism-for-GCC https://online.ucpress.edu/caa/article-abstract/11/4/63/2579... PDF: https://caus.org.lb/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/The-Trap-of-Neoliberalism-for-GCC-CountriesSalvaging-an-Economy-or-Drowning-a-Community.pdf https://caus.org.lb/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/The-Trap-of-N...
  - stale2002 3y ago
    Ah, the Georgism fans. Thinking that every single problem in the world can be solved via a land value tax. It is actually one of the few groups I've found that are worse than the socialist class reductionists, who think that every problem exists "because capitalism". Yes, a land value tax can be a useful policy. But it simply has little relevance to the topic of people who are homeless because of mental issues. And you bringing up georgism demonstrates a lack of engagement on the issue, and instead an attempt to shoe horn in your favorite ideology into any possible issue.
    - boucher 3y ago
      Conflating homelessness with mental issues is as much a lack of real engagement on the issue as your critique of the OP. Homelessness is primarily a function of housing costs, so I'd suggest the land value tax is a lot more relevant than you think.
      - stale2002 3y ago
        If it really is mostly housing costs, do you understand how easy of a problem that is to solve? Just buy all the homeless people bus tickets to somewhere cheap in the middle of nowhere and pay the cheap rent for them there. Problem solved. And easily solvable using the existing over inflated costs we pay now. We, of course, don't do that, because it isn't going to solve the problem.
        boucher 3y ago
        Or maybe it's because forcibly moving people to the middle of nowhere isn't something most people would consider acceptable.
        stale2002 3y ago
        Who said anything about forcible? People could be paid to move or otherwise offered lots of benefits and best quality of life opportunities to do so. And paying people to move would be much cheaper than the amount of money we spend now on the problem to overpay for stuff in expensive cities. The actual reason why we don't do this easy solution, is because home prices arent the sole cause of homelessness. Simply doing the voluntary, cheap, and easy solution of giving people the voluntary choice to live in a much higher quality home in a low cost of living area simply wouldn't solve the issue.
jiscariot 3y ago
If we're going to put the SF homeless problem on "neoliberal ideology", we should also give "neoliberal ideology" (e.g. free markets/trade/globalization) credit for lifting almost a billion people out of poverty in developing nations (mainly China, India) in the 00s.
- tmnvix 3y ago
  On that note, we should also give communism credit for lifting billions out of poverty in China
- ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago
  For India, yes, the MGNREGA [1] is very "neoliberal", we all know how neoliberals care about social security, social equity, guaranteed wage employment, environment protection, women empowerment, and so on. For China: "When the poverty headcount dropped below 10 percent of the rural population, targeted poverty alleviation and social protection systems started playing a more important role." [2], how neoliberal of them. Meanwhile, "more than 800 million Amazon trees felled in six years to meet beef demand" [3], who needs oxygen anyway. [1] Mahatma Gandhi National Rural Employment Guarantee Act 2005, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rural_Employment_Guarantee_Act,_2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rural_Employment_Guar... one of the main reasons for India's poverty reduction, "415 million people exited multidimensional poverty in the country in 15 years between 2005-06 and 2019-21", https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/india/india-lifted-415-million-out-of-poverty-in-15-years-says-un/articleshow/94926338.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/india/india-lifted... [2] "Four Decades of Poverty Reduction in China: Drivers, Insights for the World, and the Way Ahead", https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/e9a5bc3c-718d-57d8-9558-ce325407f737/content https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/server/api/core/bitstrea..., p. 65 [3] https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-06-02/almost-a-billion-trees-felled-to-feed-appetite-for-brazilian-beef https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-06-02/alm...
sidewndr46 3y ago
Enclosure worked perfectly well as it consolidated productive land in the hands of the powerful without the attached commoners that they were at least notionally responsible for. I cannot think of a greater disenfrachisement in the Western world other than chattel slavery.
matchbok 3y ago
There is no free market in housing, so, you're just wrong. Rules upon rules upon zoning.
HDThoreaun 3y ago
Enclosure directly lead to absolutely massively increased agricultural production. Literally doubled the amount of food available. It was one of the most effective public policies of all time.

latency-guy2 3y ago

Homelessness has been on the downtrend for quite a few decades in the US. There is 0 countries in this world who have solved homelessness by the way. I don't think you're correct.

ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago
Not sure how much of a downtrend, seems rather stable [1]. There are also 0 countries that implement Georgist policies and most of the countries in the world are directly neoliberal or neoliberal-bent, China, Russia, Saudi Arabia [2], and friends included. Perhaps I am not correct, but what do you think will happen in a few years when we will have a 100 GB neural model able to drive any car in any environment, effectively obliterating 200+ million jobs worldwide? Fairly certain, if we keep the same policies and the same belief-system, homelessness will trend rather high. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/555795/estimated-number-of-homeless-people-in-the-us https://www.statista.com/statistics/555795/estimated-number-... [2] 2018, Abdullah Al-Beraidi, "The Trap of Neoliberalism for Gulf Cooperation Council Countries", https://online.ucpress.edu/caa/article-abstract/11/4/63/25792/The-Trap-of-Neoliberalism-for-GCC https://online.ucpress.edu/caa/article-abstract/11/4/63/2579... PDF: https://caus.org.lb/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/The-Trap-of-Neoliberalism-for-GCC-CountriesSalvaging-an-Economy-or-Drowning-a-Community.pdf https://caus.org.lb/wp-content/uploads/2020/01/The-Trap-of-N...
- stale2002 3y ago
  Ah, the Georgism fans. Thinking that every single problem in the world can be solved via a land value tax. It is actually one of the few groups I've found that are worse than the socialist class reductionists, who think that every problem exists "because capitalism". Yes, a land value tax can be a useful policy. But it simply has little relevance to the topic of people who are homeless because of mental issues. And you bringing up georgism demonstrates a lack of engagement on the issue, and instead an attempt to shoe horn in your favorite ideology into any possible issue.
  - boucher 3y ago
    Conflating homelessness with mental issues is as much a lack of real engagement on the issue as your critique of the OP. Homelessness is primarily a function of housing costs, so I'd suggest the land value tax is a lot more relevant than you think.
    - stale2002 3y ago
      If it really is mostly housing costs, do you understand how easy of a problem that is to solve? Just buy all the homeless people bus tickets to somewhere cheap in the middle of nowhere and pay the cheap rent for them there. Problem solved. And easily solvable using the existing over inflated costs we pay now. We, of course, don't do that, because it isn't going to solve the problem.
      - boucher 3y ago
        Or maybe it's because forcibly moving people to the middle of nowhere isn't something most people would consider acceptable.
        stale2002 3y ago
        Who said anything about forcible? People could be paid to move or otherwise offered lots of benefits and best quality of life opportunities to do so. And paying people to move would be much cheaper than the amount of money we spend now on the problem to overpay for stuff in expensive cities. The actual reason why we don't do this easy solution, is because home prices arent the sole cause of homelessness. Simply doing the voluntary, cheap, and easy solution of giving people the voluntary choice to live in a much higher quality home in a low cost of living area simply wouldn't solve the issue.

jiscariot 3y ago

If we're going to put the SF homeless problem on "neoliberal ideology", we should also give "neoliberal ideology" (e.g. free markets/trade/globalization) credit for lifting almost a billion people out of poverty in developing nations (mainly China, India) in the 00s.

tmnvix 3y ago
On that note, we should also give communism credit for lifting billions out of poverty in China
ly3xqhl8g9 3y ago
For India, yes, the MGNREGA [1] is very "neoliberal", we all know how neoliberals care about social security, social equity, guaranteed wage employment, environment protection, women empowerment, and so on. For China: "When the poverty headcount dropped below 10 percent of the rural population, targeted poverty alleviation and social protection systems started playing a more important role." [2], how neoliberal of them. Meanwhile, "more than 800 million Amazon trees felled in six years to meet beef demand" [3], who needs oxygen anyway. [1] Mahatma Gandhi National Rural Employment Guarantee Act 2005, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rural_Employment_Guarantee_Act,_2005 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Rural_Employment_Guar... one of the main reasons for India's poverty reduction, "415 million people exited multidimensional poverty in the country in 15 years between 2005-06 and 2019-21", https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/india/india-lifted-415-million-out-of-poverty-in-15-years-says-un/articleshow/94926338.cms https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/india/india-lifted... [2] "Four Decades of Poverty Reduction in China: Drivers, Insights for the World, and the Way Ahead", https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/server/api/core/bitstreams/e9a5bc3c-718d-57d8-9558-ce325407f737/content https://openknowledge.worldbank.org/server/api/core/bitstrea..., p. 65 [3] https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-06-02/almost-a-billion-trees-felled-to-feed-appetite-for-brazilian-beef https://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/stories/2023-06-02/alm...

sidewndr46 3y ago

Enclosure worked perfectly well as it consolidated productive land in the hands of the powerful without the attached commoners that they were at least notionally responsible for. I cannot think of a greater disenfrachisement in the Western world other than chattel slavery.

matchbok 3y ago

There is no free market in housing, so, you're just wrong. Rules upon rules upon zoning.

HDThoreaun 3y ago

Enclosure directly lead to absolutely massively increased agricultural production. Literally doubled the amount of food available. It was one of the most effective public policies of all time.