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If there is such a thing as consciousness (a big if), then why would it disappear on the long drive home? Just because you've tasked some lesser software routin

If there is such a thing as consciousness (a big if), then why would it disappear on the long drive home? Just because you've tasked some lesser software routine with the responsibility of not turning you into road pizza doesn't mean you're functionally unconscious? I've heard this described before, and those people are daydreaming. Or chewing on a particular problem they couldn't crack in the work day. Or hell, some of them seem to "listen to music" in their head. The trouble with "consciousness" is that humans can't really define it in a meaningful way, but they're absolutely certain that it's a real thing and it makes them important.

GoblinSlayer 3y ago
>then why would it disappear on the long drive home? Thinking is expensive, so it's optimized with reflexes.
- namaria 3y ago
  Maybe we could define consciousness as a threshold of attention. Maybe some complex systems exhibit what we call consciousness when it can muster enough attention to become reflexive.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  Thinking is certainly expensive for some. Sprinting is expensive for fat people because they don't do as much of it as they believe themselves to.
adastra22 3y ago
> If there is such a thing as consciousness (a big if) How is that a big if? As Descartes showed, it is literally the one thing each of us can be absolutely certain about.
- adrianN 3y ago
  We don't have a definition of consciousness that allows you to determine whether a rock is conscious or not.
  - namaria 3y ago
    Moot point, following Descartes definition you can only ascertain you own consciousness, you can't even determine if another person is conscious.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    Sure, but consciousness as a phenomenon does exist. I know this with absolute certainty, because I'm conscious typing this right now.
    - kukkeliskuu 3y ago
      How do you know this with absolute certainty?
      - adastra22 3y ago
        That I exist as a thinking, feeling, observing entity? That’s kinda self-evident, no?
        joquarky 3y ago
        The trick with this is that most people do not question what "I" refers to in such a statement.
        adastra22 3y ago
        I don't see how that is relevant? I exist as a conscious, thinking, feeling, perceiving entity. Y'all might be NPCs but I know I exist, whatever the hell that means. Nothing you can say will ever convince me otherwise: I have direct knowledge that I experience conscious awareness. Ergo, I have an existence proof that consciousness exists, because I myself am an example of it. Anyone arguing that consciousness doesn't exist is going to get a dry smirk from me and a sad shake of the head. I know otherwise. What "I" am in the larger sphere of things doesn't even enter into this.
jstanley 3y ago
> If there is such a thing as consciousness (a big if) There plainly is such a thing. The only people who would question it are those who don't have it, and those who haven't noticed that they have it. You might not notice you have it, in the same way that fish might not notice the water. Just consider that it's not automatically the case that you are aware of your own existence. Inanimate objects, and lesser lifeforms, aren't aware of their own existence, so something about you makes you different from them. If you call that thing something other than "consciousness", then that's fine, but it's just a different name for the same thing.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
  > There plainly is such a thing. The only people who would question it are those who don't have it, and those who haven't noticed that they have it. How is that different than a soul? > aren't aware of their own existence, so something about you makes you different from them. I I see no discernible difference in that regard. That I string words together in a way that seems interesting isn't evidence that I'm conscious. It's evidence that there's some interesting algorithm hardwired into my brain meat. There's no magic there, no spirit, and it's embarrassing that you believe there is and that it's somehow akin to rationality for you to believe it.
  - rytis 3y ago
    > There's no magic there, no spirit Just for the sake of argument. If there was "magic" and "spirit", how would you tell? What properties would you expect to observe?
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
      I would expect elements of those phenomenon to exist outside of human skulls, and to be manipulable in such a way that instruments could be constructed that use those principles to detect souls in human skulls. They'd also be empirical in that no other simpler/more-rational explanation exists for the properties they exhibit. This is plainly obvious. You're incapable of coming up with something like this, because you're a p-zombie. Like those LLMs we read about on this site, you can't imagine anything that hasn't been part of your training corpus. Novel, intelligent ideas are beyond you unless they previously existed and you have been exposed to those already. Why did you even have to ask your rhetorical question? Your consciousness is an illusion. You can't even properly understand this comment I've written. The manner in which you'll respond to it is perfectly predictable.
kukkeliskuu 3y ago
"why would it disappear on the long drive home?" The phenomenon exists and may be observed regardless of whether we know why it exists. We are complex beings and there is probably no simple explanation for this. "Just because you've tasked some lesser software routine with the responsibility of not turning you into road pizza doesn't mean you're functionally unconscious?" I am not claiming the driver is functionally unconscious, but that there is a distinct level of consciousness between unconscious and fully conscious where you are able to carry out complex operations without being fully conscious. Obviously you cannot drive a car if you are functionally unconscious. You can also say some subsystem is handling the driving. But calling it "tasking" means you consciously decide to delegate the work. My experience is that I have not consciously decided to delegate the work in such situations. "The trouble with "consciousness" is that humans can't really define it in a meaningful way, but they're absolutely certain that it's a real thing and it makes them important." The phenomenon can be observed and experienced, if you are open to it, regardless of whether we call it consciousness or not. And once you have the experience, it is easier to talk about consciousness in sensible manner.

GoblinSlayer 3y ago

>then why would it disappear on the long drive home? Thinking is expensive, so it's optimized with reflexes.

namaria 3y ago
Maybe we could define consciousness as a threshold of attention. Maybe some complex systems exhibit what we call consciousness when it can muster enough attention to become reflexive.
NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
Thinking is certainly expensive for some. Sprinting is expensive for fat people because they don't do as much of it as they believe themselves to.

adastra22 3y ago

> If there is such a thing as consciousness (a big if) How is that a big if? As Descartes showed, it is literally the one thing each of us can be absolutely certain about.

adrianN 3y ago
We don't have a definition of consciousness that allows you to determine whether a rock is conscious or not.
- namaria 3y ago
  Moot point, following Descartes definition you can only ascertain you own consciousness, you can't even determine if another person is conscious.
- adastra22 3y ago
  Sure, but consciousness as a phenomenon does exist. I know this with absolute certainty, because I'm conscious typing this right now.
  - kukkeliskuu 3y ago
    How do you know this with absolute certainty?
    - adastra22 3y ago
      That I exist as a thinking, feeling, observing entity? That’s kinda self-evident, no?
      - joquarky 3y ago
        The trick with this is that most people do not question what "I" refers to in such a statement.
        adastra22 3y ago
        I don't see how that is relevant? I exist as a conscious, thinking, feeling, perceiving entity. Y'all might be NPCs but I know I exist, whatever the hell that means. Nothing you can say will ever convince me otherwise: I have direct knowledge that I experience conscious awareness. Ergo, I have an existence proof that consciousness exists, because I myself am an example of it. Anyone arguing that consciousness doesn't exist is going to get a dry smirk from me and a sad shake of the head. I know otherwise. What "I" am in the larger sphere of things doesn't even enter into this.

jstanley 3y ago

> If there is such a thing as consciousness (a big if) There plainly is such a thing. The only people who would question it are those who don't have it, and those who haven't noticed that they have it. You might not notice you have it, in the same way that fish might not notice the water. Just consider that it's not automatically the case that you are aware of your own existence. Inanimate objects, and lesser lifeforms, aren't aware of their own existence, so something about you makes you different from them. If you call that thing something other than "consciousness", then that's fine, but it's just a different name for the same thing.

NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
> There plainly is such a thing. The only people who would question it are those who don't have it, and those who haven't noticed that they have it. How is that different than a soul? > aren't aware of their own existence, so something about you makes you different from them. I I see no discernible difference in that regard. That I string words together in a way that seems interesting isn't evidence that I'm conscious. It's evidence that there's some interesting algorithm hardwired into my brain meat. There's no magic there, no spirit, and it's embarrassing that you believe there is and that it's somehow akin to rationality for you to believe it.
- rytis 3y ago
  > There's no magic there, no spirit Just for the sake of argument. If there was "magic" and "spirit", how would you tell? What properties would you expect to observe?
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 3y ago
    I would expect elements of those phenomenon to exist outside of human skulls, and to be manipulable in such a way that instruments could be constructed that use those principles to detect souls in human skulls. They'd also be empirical in that no other simpler/more-rational explanation exists for the properties they exhibit. This is plainly obvious. You're incapable of coming up with something like this, because you're a p-zombie. Like those LLMs we read about on this site, you can't imagine anything that hasn't been part of your training corpus. Novel, intelligent ideas are beyond you unless they previously existed and you have been exposed to those already. Why did you even have to ask your rhetorical question? Your consciousness is an illusion. You can't even properly understand this comment I've written. The manner in which you'll respond to it is perfectly predictable.

kukkeliskuu 3y ago

"why would it disappear on the long drive home?" The phenomenon exists and may be observed regardless of whether we know why it exists. We are complex beings and there is probably no simple explanation for this. "Just because you've tasked some lesser software routine with the responsibility of not turning you into road pizza doesn't mean you're functionally unconscious?" I am not claiming the driver is functionally unconscious, but that there is a distinct level of consciousness between unconscious and fully conscious where you are able to carry out complex operations without being fully conscious. Obviously you cannot drive a car if you are functionally unconscious. You can also say some subsystem is handling the driving. But calling it "tasking" means you consciously decide to delegate the work. My experience is that I have not consciously decided to delegate the work in such situations. "The trouble with "consciousness" is that humans can't really define it in a meaningful way, but they're absolutely certain that it's a real thing and it makes them important." The phenomenon can be observed and experienced, if you are open to it, regardless of whether we call it consciousness or not. And once you have the experience, it is easier to talk about consciousness in sensible manner.