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This means that our conscious experience (qualia) are the result of physical processes. Well then, what makes brains so special? Can other complex systems have

This means that our conscious experience (qualia) are the result of physical processes. Well then, what makes brains so special? Can other complex systems have qualia? Do they even have to be complex - how about a sliding scale of consciousness? Personally I think it would be strange for the universe to have "neural chauvinism" or some sort of complexity threshold. More likely, qualia are somehow innate and pervasive in the universe. I believe the saying goes: pure physicalism necessitates panpsychism.

GoblinSlayer 3y ago
It's more a matter of functionality rather than only complexity. Functionality can be not implemented just fine.
- anon84873628 3y ago
  Which functionality produces qualia? It certainly seems related to sensory processing, but that still boils down to nerves and neurons. Does it require a notion of "self"? The end result is that physical systems are producing a completely non-physical and subjective phenomenon.
  - GoblinSlayer 3y ago
    The functionality of subjective experience. Some higher animals don't pass the mirror test, but have consciousness.
    - anon84873628 3y ago
      So what does it take to have subjective experience? Why do animals (whether higher or lower) have consciousness, but not plants?
dale_glass 3y ago
> This means that our conscious experience (qualia) are the result of physical processes. Well then, what makes brains so special? I don't think they are > Can other complex systems have qualia? Do they even have to be complex - how about a sliding scale of consciousness? How about most any modern computing system? We can reproduce the same features with layers of control, permissions and abstraction. Suppose a system consisting of two modules. The vision module is hooked up to a camera. The AI module has a low bandwidth, serial text communication with the vision module and a fixed API. It has similar connections to other subsystems. User -> AI: "This is a ball. Its color is red." AI -> Vision: [ color of current thing = "red" ] AI -> User: Understood (later) User -> AI: "What is the color of this ball?" AI -> User: Let's see... AI -> Vision: [ get color of current thing ] Vision -> AI: "red" AI -> User: "The ball is red" A system made in this way can learn a ball is red, can then apply the knowledge to other red objects, but would be completely unable to describe what "red" looks like. That is locked up deep in the guts of the vision module, and the AI "conscious mind" has no access to that. Different implementations of the vision module might use the same internal representations or might not. It's even conceivable that you could swap the vision module for something different (eg, a camera wired RGB or BRG), crossing the wires, and it being impossible for the AI to tell.
- anon84873628 3y ago
  Ok, but do any of those systems have qualia? If so, where does the quality come from?
  - dale_glass 3y ago
    > Ok, but do any of those systems have qualia? It seems to fulfill all the requirements, so I'd say they do. > If so, where does the quality come from? From fulfilling the requirements

GoblinSlayer 3y ago

It's more a matter of functionality rather than only complexity. Functionality can be not implemented just fine.

anon84873628 3y ago
Which functionality produces qualia? It certainly seems related to sensory processing, but that still boils down to nerves and neurons. Does it require a notion of "self"? The end result is that physical systems are producing a completely non-physical and subjective phenomenon.
- GoblinSlayer 3y ago
  The functionality of subjective experience. Some higher animals don't pass the mirror test, but have consciousness.
  - anon84873628 3y ago
    So what does it take to have subjective experience? Why do animals (whether higher or lower) have consciousness, but not plants?

dale_glass 3y ago

> This means that our conscious experience (qualia) are the result of physical processes. Well then, what makes brains so special? I don't think they are > Can other complex systems have qualia? Do they even have to be complex - how about a sliding scale of consciousness? How about most any modern computing system? We can reproduce the same features with layers of control, permissions and abstraction. Suppose a system consisting of two modules. The vision module is hooked up to a camera. The AI module has a low bandwidth, serial text communication with the vision module and a fixed API. It has similar connections to other subsystems. User -> AI: "This is a ball. Its color is red." AI -> Vision: [ color of current thing = "red" ] AI -> User: Understood (later) User -> AI: "What is the color of this ball?" AI -> User: Let's see... AI -> Vision: [ get color of current thing ] Vision -> AI: "red" AI -> User: "The ball is red" A system made in this way can learn a ball is red, can then apply the knowledge to other red objects, but would be completely unable to describe what "red" looks like. That is locked up deep in the guts of the vision module, and the AI "conscious mind" has no access to that. Different implementations of the vision module might use the same internal representations or might not. It's even conceivable that you could swap the vision module for something different (eg, a camera wired RGB or BRG), crossing the wires, and it being impossible for the AI to tell.

anon84873628 3y ago
Ok, but do any of those systems have qualia? If so, where does the quality come from?
- dale_glass 3y ago
  > Ok, but do any of those systems have qualia? It seems to fulfill all the requirements, so I'd say they do. > If so, where does the quality come from? From fulfilling the requirements