3 ms·

> I think it necessarily must be negotiated it cant be negotiated fairly. negotiating works for people who are "in the know" and have been in the industry for

> I think it necessarily must be negotiated it cant be negotiated fairly. negotiating works for people who are "in the know" and have been in the industry for years such as yourself. everyone else gets shit end of the stick, because the company is negotiation from position of power with much more knowledge. thats why some governments mandate minimum salary based on collective agreement or make it a law to provide salary range (for example Austria)

hakunin 3y ago
I agree that senior experience is probably important, but also it’s knowing how to negotiate. What does it mean to be negotiated “fairly”? If you don’t like the rate, you come with a counter proposal, for which ideally you have leverage. The leverage is another job offer you found. If you don’t have leverage, you could negotiate a few other ways but they’re less effective. In the end, if you feel you can’t get a competing offer and you can’t wait, essentially you have to accept the terms, but also you can continue the search, and quit when you find something better. This is why companies don’t like to lowball you - they don’t want you to come in with one foot out the door. So one of those “less effective” ways is to explain honestly how their offer might not be sufficient for you to be able to focus on your work without worrying about rent and food. It’s in the best interest of both of you for you to focus on work.
- iExploder 3y ago
  I believe this "dance" to be quite ineffective for both employers and employees, as the best strategy is standard 2 years somewhere then monkey branch for 20% bump in another company. I guess this is a debate as old as time "invisible hand" vs "socialism". I understand both sides of the argument, but think it makes sense to have a bit of government oversight or workers initiatives here to make sure people are not getting shafted.
  - hakunin 3y ago
    In the beginning of your career, I do think well-timed jumps are very effective. But overall yes, in capitalism (whether you like it or not, this is what we got) the most important skill is getting people to agree/compromise with you. And for people who (for perfectly valid reasons) can't develop this skill, we have institutions such as unions and recruiters that help delegate it somewhat. I don't think standardized non-negotiable tiers of deals are as helpful to us as we seem to think.
SergeAx 3y ago
And that is actually a problem for Austria. Ever heard about Austrian unicorn tech companies? Me neither. Upd: I actually checked, there are 6 (six) unicorns in Austria. But no one ever heard of them and you never figure out what are they doing.
- iExploder 3y ago
  I will bite and play the what-about-ism game. And I dont mean this as an insult but factually you wont see crap smeared on sidewalks and armies of dope fiends walking around in the cities of Austria. It seems like profit at the expense of everything else, morals included and sustainable growth are two different concepts. So yes, Austria (country of 10 million) does not have many unicorn companies, but the quality of life for an average person is miles removed from that of an average person in the US, the country with most unicorns in the world?
  - SergeAx 3y ago
    You are right about the quality of life in Austria. It is not a paradise; most Austrian cities have better and worse parts, but generally, Austrians are well off. At the same time, life in Austria is quite expensive too. It's not easy to move to Austria as a self-supporting wealthy individual; getting a working permit is also not easy. Austrian demographics currently are balancing on the edge of self-sustainability thanks to migrants, but the average age is growing fast. In 20 years, about 55% of the population will be 60+. Who will pay for their healthcare and social security? Who will care for and treat them? AI-powered robots? I don't think so. So Austria will be forced to open floodgates to gastarbaiters from all over the world. And with the aforementioned cost of life, they will have their portion of slums with junkies and crap-smeared sidewalks.

hakunin 3y ago

I agree that senior experience is probably important, but also it’s knowing how to negotiate. What does it mean to be negotiated “fairly”? If you don’t like the rate, you come with a counter proposal, for which ideally you have leverage. The leverage is another job offer you found. If you don’t have leverage, you could negotiate a few other ways but they’re less effective. In the end, if you feel you can’t get a competing offer and you can’t wait, essentially you have to accept the terms, but also you can continue the search, and quit when you find something better. This is why companies don’t like to lowball you - they don’t want you to come in with one foot out the door. So one of those “less effective” ways is to explain honestly how their offer might not be sufficient for you to be able to focus on your work without worrying about rent and food. It’s in the best interest of both of you for you to focus on work.

iExploder 3y ago
I believe this "dance" to be quite ineffective for both employers and employees, as the best strategy is standard 2 years somewhere then monkey branch for 20% bump in another company. I guess this is a debate as old as time "invisible hand" vs "socialism". I understand both sides of the argument, but think it makes sense to have a bit of government oversight or workers initiatives here to make sure people are not getting shafted.
- hakunin 3y ago
  In the beginning of your career, I do think well-timed jumps are very effective. But overall yes, in capitalism (whether you like it or not, this is what we got) the most important skill is getting people to agree/compromise with you. And for people who (for perfectly valid reasons) can't develop this skill, we have institutions such as unions and recruiters that help delegate it somewhat. I don't think standardized non-negotiable tiers of deals are as helpful to us as we seem to think.

SergeAx 3y ago

And that is actually a problem for Austria. Ever heard about Austrian unicorn tech companies? Me neither. Upd: I actually checked, there are 6 (six) unicorns in Austria. But no one ever heard of them and you never figure out what are they doing.

iExploder 3y ago
I will bite and play the what-about-ism game. And I dont mean this as an insult but factually you wont see crap smeared on sidewalks and armies of dope fiends walking around in the cities of Austria. It seems like profit at the expense of everything else, morals included and sustainable growth are two different concepts. So yes, Austria (country of 10 million) does not have many unicorn companies, but the quality of life for an average person is miles removed from that of an average person in the US, the country with most unicorns in the world?
- SergeAx 3y ago
  You are right about the quality of life in Austria. It is not a paradise; most Austrian cities have better and worse parts, but generally, Austrians are well off. At the same time, life in Austria is quite expensive too. It's not easy to move to Austria as a self-supporting wealthy individual; getting a working permit is also not easy. Austrian demographics currently are balancing on the edge of self-sustainability thanks to migrants, but the average age is growing fast. In 20 years, about 55% of the population will be 60+. Who will pay for their healthcare and social security? Who will care for and treat them? AI-powered robots? I don't think so. So Austria will be forced to open floodgates to gastarbaiters from all over the world. And with the aforementioned cost of life, they will have their portion of slums with junkies and crap-smeared sidewalks.