5 ms·

Now do Rock music https://www.amazon.com/Weird-Scenes-Inside-Canyon-Laurel/dp/1909394122 https://www.amazon.com/Weird-Scenes-Inside-Canyon-Laurel/dp/...

by Lammy 3y ago

heavyset_go 3y ago
This is one of my favorite rabbit holes to go down, it's nuts.
debacle 3y ago
What?
- quakeguy 3y ago
  The book the OP links to does make a good case of the same influence being used by the CIA as the OOP link makes with modern art… if that makes sense.
readyplayernull 3y ago
And The X-Files was a long ad.
underlipton 3y ago
Makes me look at things like Disco Demolition Night in a new light.
- mikrl 3y ago
  That event always seemed so weird to me. I’m not the biggest fan of disco (some of the old and new stuff is danceable) but isn’t blowing up a crate of records similar in spirit to book burning?
  - underlipton 3y ago
    Or, if you consider recorded art - its creator's thoughts and feelings being shuttled into the future - as akin to that creator living on in perpetuity, perhaps it's also similar in spirit to the assassination of a "subversive." Wait a minute.
  - dfxm12 3y ago
    The spirit was the thing was that: 1. explosions are fun, 2. this rock jock hated disco, 3. his fans and other people will pay money to go to a baseball game and see this at a time when not many people were going. It was more of a publicity stunt, than anything politically charged. Something in the spirit of book burning today is more like banning books in public places, like schools or libraries, under penalty of prison.
- 082349872349872 3y ago
  What makes me suspicious is that disco never "died" in europe in the same way it did in the States... (up until recently, covers of "I Will Survive" —one of which, sadly no longer available on YouTube, was even in drag— were featured annually in russian state-channel [Россия1] New Year's programming)
  - GoofballJones 3y ago
    Disco didn't die in the states at all. It kept on going. As a mainstream genre, maybe, for a while. But it evolved into the various house and techno and the myriad of sub-genres that are still flourishing to this day.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKTFfT4sMhQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKTFfT4sMhQ > There's this guy from the CIA and he's creeping around Laurel Canyon
intalentive 3y ago
Now do feminism https://uscpublicdiplomacy.org/blog/feminist-was-spy https://uscpublicdiplomacy.org/blog/feminist-was-spy
- nashashmi 3y ago
  CIA does feminism: https://mobile.twitter.com/wikileaks/status/1429188218424078338 https://mobile.twitter.com/wikileaks/status/1429188218424078...
Fervicus 3y ago
Now do news media: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anderson_Cooper#Early_career https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anderson_Cooper#Early_career
- Lammy 3y ago
  The worst/most-impressive part is how difficult it is to even raise this subject without triggering everyone's thought-terminating partisan programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Carlson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Carlson https://theweek.com/speedreads/689969/tucker-carlson-tried-join-cia https://theweek.com/speedreads/689969/tucker-carlson-tried-j...
  - downWidOutaFite 3y ago
    I don't think I'm "triggered" when I think most of this stuff is just dumb. Like OK, Anderson Cooper was an intern at the CIA while in college. From that we're supposed to mentally jump through hundreds of hoops to get to "the CIA controls news media even though it's illegal and any patriotic employee could blow the whistle on the whole thing". A lot of it is predicated on the "deep state" being completely evil anti-american people, which is so beyond my experience of federal law officers that it doesn't fit my world view. Look at the CIA's Bush-era legally-questionable torture program, there were tons of whistle blowers and media inquiry, it was not secret for very long at all. But somehow a clearly illegal program that controls the news media has been going undetected for decades? It's just not how the USA works.
    - bluefishinit 3y ago
      There's a long, well documented history of the CIA injecting unknowing, innocent people with various drugs for tactical and experimental reasons. That seems pretty evil and anti-American (really, anti-human)!
    - Lammy 3y ago
      > we're supposed to mentally jump through hundreds of hoops No, I don't believe anything like that. In fact I think """Theorists""" are always wrong because it is always impossible to speak to other people's intent. It's hard to even trust a person to accurately tell you their own intent. The system selects for true believers, because there is no more effective mind control than what feels like one's own decisions. I would like to unironically suggest this piece by T. Kaczynski — please don't shoot the messenger :) https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-the-system-s-neatest-trick https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-the-sy... This is why there's so much overlap between the security state and the 20th Century development of advertising. Both rely on accurately predicting the public's reaction given some stimuli, then trying to inject the most effective stimuli. In advertising it's done in pursuit of profit. In statecraft it's done in pursuit of ?????. Remember that propaganda doesn't mean lies, it means idea-you-feel-compelled-to-share: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Public_Information https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Public_Informatio... "[George] Creel urged [Woodrow] Wilson to create a government agency to coordinate “not propaganda as the Germans defined it, but propaganda in the true sense of the word, meaning the 'propagation of faith.'”. "Creel later published his memoirs of his service with the CPI, 'How We Advertised America', in which he wrote: “In no degree was the Committee an agency of censorship, a machinery of concealment or repression. Its emphasis throughout was on the open and the positive. At no point did it seek or exercise authorities under those war laws that limited the freedom of speech and press. In all things, from first to last, without halt or change, it was a plain publicity proposition, a vast enterprise in salesmanship, the world's greatest adventures in advertising… We did not call it propaganda, for that word, in German hands, had come to be associated with deceit and corruption. Our effort was educational and informative throughout, for we had such confidence in our case as to feel that no other argument was needed than the simple, straightforward presentation of the facts.”"
bluefishinit 3y ago
This is a great place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident tldr: Jim Morrison's dad started the Vietnam War when he falsely claimed he was attacked off the coast of Vietnam by the North Vietnamese.
- mr_toad 3y ago
  Johnson wanted to go to war, eventually some excuse would have been found.
  - bluefishinit 3y ago
    I agree, this was less than a year after the JFK assassination and of high priority to Johnson and his "supporters".
  - DANmode 3y ago
    Can you finish your point? What is the takeaway?
    - corford 3y ago
      That it was inevitable?
- hgsgm 3y ago
  Not really. There was a real attack (provoked by the US) on Aug 2nd, and Johnson didn't want any evidence before escalating. Johnson even lied to Congress and the public about his plans before attacking. It's clear he would have used any excuse he could gin up.
  - bluefishinit 3y ago
    Definitely, but it's also interesting that Jim Morrison's dad was the in charge of the ginned up operation. I don't think most people know that.
musha68k 3y ago
Where are the facts that back this up? Shouldn't there be disclosed evidence by now? Wasn't the counter culture under surveillance regularly? This is definitely a fitting conspiracy theory for our increasingly fascist times though.
- Lammy 3y ago
  > Shouldn't there be disclosed evidence by now? Ed was at the end of his rope, an expression he detested. “There is no rope!”, he would scream at the laughing walls, “There is only the end. No hope; no rope.”
photochemsyn 3y ago
I recently came across a reference to this kind of thing going on in Europe, although it was more about controlling what music was popular based on some notion of what was 'safe' for the youth. The billionaire in question (Ukraine's second richest at one point) was a major behind-the-scenes actor in both pre- and post-2014 Ukraine, a backer of Zelensky at one point, but now safely on the official US/NATO-reviled list so we can talk about him: > "As a Komsomol activist, Kolomoyskyi was involved in the so-called "disco movement" - an attempt by the authorities to promote an ideological safe alternative to the growing, underground, rebroadcast and performance of "Anglo-American" rock music including, in the 80s, heavy metal and punk." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi
JPws_Prntr_Fngr 3y ago
I found this book pretty unconvincing, with way too few sources and way too many flimsy inferences. However, there is a great book about CIA guys creeping around Laurel Canyon, called Chaos [0]. It's filled with sources, research, and mostly solid inferences. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAOS:_Charles_Manson,_the_CIA,_and_the_Secret_History_of_the_Sixties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAOS:_Charles_Manson,_the_CIA...
- 20after4 3y ago
  see also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1hv5P4SwbU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1hv5P4SwbU

Now do Rock music https://www.amazon.com/Weird-Scenes-Inside-Canyon-Laurel/dp/1909394122 https://www.amazon.com/Weird-Scenes-Inside-Canyon-Laurel/dp/...

by Lammy 3y ago

Now do Rock music https://www.amazon.com/Weird-Scenes-Inside-Canyon-Laurel/dp/1909394122 https://www.amazon.com/Weird-Scenes-Inside-Canyon-Laurel/dp/...

heavyset_go 3y ago

This is one of my favorite rabbit holes to go down, it's nuts.

debacle 3y ago

What?

quakeguy 3y ago
The book the OP links to does make a good case of the same influence being used by the CIA as the OOP link makes with modern art… if that makes sense.

readyplayernull 3y ago

And The X-Files was a long ad.

underlipton 3y ago

Makes me look at things like Disco Demolition Night in a new light.

mikrl 3y ago
That event always seemed so weird to me. I’m not the biggest fan of disco (some of the old and new stuff is danceable) but isn’t blowing up a crate of records similar in spirit to book burning?
- underlipton 3y ago
  Or, if you consider recorded art - its creator's thoughts and feelings being shuttled into the future - as akin to that creator living on in perpetuity, perhaps it's also similar in spirit to the assassination of a "subversive." Wait a minute.
- dfxm12 3y ago
  The spirit was the thing was that: 1. explosions are fun, 2. this rock jock hated disco, 3. his fans and other people will pay money to go to a baseball game and see this at a time when not many people were going. It was more of a publicity stunt, than anything politically charged. Something in the spirit of book burning today is more like banning books in public places, like schools or libraries, under penalty of prison.
082349872349872 3y ago
What makes me suspicious is that disco never "died" in europe in the same way it did in the States... (up until recently, covers of "I Will Survive" —one of which, sadly no longer available on YouTube, was even in drag— were featured annually in russian state-channel [Россия1] New Year's programming)
- GoofballJones 3y ago
  Disco didn't die in the states at all. It kept on going. As a mainstream genre, maybe, for a while. But it evolved into the various house and techno and the myriad of sub-genres that are still flourishing to this day.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKTFfT4sMhQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKTFfT4sMhQ > There's this guy from the CIA and he's creeping around Laurel Canyon

intalentive 3y ago

Now do feminism https://uscpublicdiplomacy.org/blog/feminist-was-spy https://uscpublicdiplomacy.org/blog/feminist-was-spy

nashashmi 3y ago
CIA does feminism: https://mobile.twitter.com/wikileaks/status/1429188218424078338 https://mobile.twitter.com/wikileaks/status/1429188218424078...

Fervicus 3y ago

Now do news media: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anderson_Cooper#Early_career https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anderson_Cooper#Early_career

Lammy 3y ago
The worst/most-impressive part is how difficult it is to even raise this subject without triggering everyone's thought-terminating partisan programming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Carlson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Carlson https://theweek.com/speedreads/689969/tucker-carlson-tried-join-cia https://theweek.com/speedreads/689969/tucker-carlson-tried-j...
- downWidOutaFite 3y ago
  I don't think I'm "triggered" when I think most of this stuff is just dumb. Like OK, Anderson Cooper was an intern at the CIA while in college. From that we're supposed to mentally jump through hundreds of hoops to get to "the CIA controls news media even though it's illegal and any patriotic employee could blow the whistle on the whole thing". A lot of it is predicated on the "deep state" being completely evil anti-american people, which is so beyond my experience of federal law officers that it doesn't fit my world view. Look at the CIA's Bush-era legally-questionable torture program, there were tons of whistle blowers and media inquiry, it was not secret for very long at all. But somehow a clearly illegal program that controls the news media has been going undetected for decades? It's just not how the USA works.
  - bluefishinit 3y ago
    There's a long, well documented history of the CIA injecting unknowing, innocent people with various drugs for tactical and experimental reasons. That seems pretty evil and anti-American (really, anti-human)!
  - Lammy 3y ago
    > we're supposed to mentally jump through hundreds of hoops No, I don't believe anything like that. In fact I think """Theorists""" are always wrong because it is always impossible to speak to other people's intent. It's hard to even trust a person to accurately tell you their own intent. The system selects for true believers, because there is no more effective mind control than what feels like one's own decisions. I would like to unironically suggest this piece by T. Kaczynski — please don't shoot the messenger :) https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-the-system-s-neatest-trick https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-the-sy... This is why there's so much overlap between the security state and the 20th Century development of advertising. Both rely on accurately predicting the public's reaction given some stimuli, then trying to inject the most effective stimuli. In advertising it's done in pursuit of profit. In statecraft it's done in pursuit of ?????. Remember that propaganda doesn't mean lies, it means idea-you-feel-compelled-to-share: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Public_Information https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Committee_on_Public_Informatio... "[George] Creel urged [Woodrow] Wilson to create a government agency to coordinate “not propaganda as the Germans defined it, but propaganda in the true sense of the word, meaning the 'propagation of faith.'”. "Creel later published his memoirs of his service with the CPI, 'How We Advertised America', in which he wrote: “In no degree was the Committee an agency of censorship, a machinery of concealment or repression. Its emphasis throughout was on the open and the positive. At no point did it seek or exercise authorities under those war laws that limited the freedom of speech and press. In all things, from first to last, without halt or change, it was a plain publicity proposition, a vast enterprise in salesmanship, the world's greatest adventures in advertising… We did not call it propaganda, for that word, in German hands, had come to be associated with deceit and corruption. Our effort was educational and informative throughout, for we had such confidence in our case as to feel that no other argument was needed than the simple, straightforward presentation of the facts.”"

bluefishinit 3y ago

This is a great place to start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident tldr: Jim Morrison's dad started the Vietnam War when he falsely claimed he was attacked off the coast of Vietnam by the North Vietnamese.

mr_toad 3y ago
Johnson wanted to go to war, eventually some excuse would have been found.
- bluefishinit 3y ago
  I agree, this was less than a year after the JFK assassination and of high priority to Johnson and his "supporters".
- DANmode 3y ago
  Can you finish your point? What is the takeaway?
  - corford 3y ago
    That it was inevitable?
hgsgm 3y ago
Not really. There was a real attack (provoked by the US) on Aug 2nd, and Johnson didn't want any evidence before escalating. Johnson even lied to Congress and the public about his plans before attacking. It's clear he would have used any excuse he could gin up.
- bluefishinit 3y ago
  Definitely, but it's also interesting that Jim Morrison's dad was the in charge of the ginned up operation. I don't think most people know that.

musha68k 3y ago

Where are the facts that back this up? Shouldn't there be disclosed evidence by now? Wasn't the counter culture under surveillance regularly? This is definitely a fitting conspiracy theory for our increasingly fascist times though.

Lammy 3y ago
> Shouldn't there be disclosed evidence by now? Ed was at the end of his rope, an expression he detested. “There is no rope!”, he would scream at the laughing walls, “There is only the end. No hope; no rope.”

photochemsyn 3y ago

I recently came across a reference to this kind of thing going on in Europe, although it was more about controlling what music was popular based on some notion of what was 'safe' for the youth. The billionaire in question (Ukraine's second richest at one point) was a major behind-the-scenes actor in both pre- and post-2014 Ukraine, a backer of Zelensky at one point, but now safely on the official US/NATO-reviled list so we can talk about him: > "As a Komsomol activist, Kolomoyskyi was involved in the so-called "disco movement" - an attempt by the authorities to promote an ideological safe alternative to the growing, underground, rebroadcast and performance of "Anglo-American" rock music including, in the 80s, heavy metal and punk." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ihor_Kolomoyskyi

JPws_Prntr_Fngr 3y ago

I found this book pretty unconvincing, with way too few sources and way too many flimsy inferences. However, there is a great book about CIA guys creeping around Laurel Canyon, called Chaos [0]. It's filled with sources, research, and mostly solid inferences. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAOS:_Charles_Manson,_the_CIA,_and_the_Secret_History_of_the_Sixties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CHAOS:_Charles_Manson,_the_CIA...

20after4 3y ago
see also: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1hv5P4SwbU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r1hv5P4SwbU