6 ms·

A police officer's first 45 words are a portent of what's to come

32 points by heavyset_go 3y ago

PraetorianGourd 3y ago
I wonder if there has been any research into what motivates an officer to approach a traffic stop in a specific way. I don’t want to jump straight to racism because not every encounter with a Black motorist included the more aggressive posturing. When I’ve been pulled over, the officer spends some time in their car, I assume running my plates and the such. Perhaps past convictions or warrants influence the tone of subsequent interactions? Even so, it seems a good standard would be to always immediately mention the reason for the stop.
- drekk 3y ago
  When we're talking about 1% of white motorists experiencing an escalation vs 15% of black motorists it's hard to not see a racial element. Whether or not it's intentional is frankly besides the point. I agree a good standard would be to require mentioning the reason for the stop, but more importantly ending things like qualified immunity. There's zero accountability. Who polices the police?
  - PraetorianGourd 3y ago
    I would want to see the data by income or other socioeconomic factors, in addition to race. And it can still be racism in that racism explains economic disparity to a degree. My intent isn’t to absolve racism from being primarily responsible.
  - legitster 3y ago
    Black motorists are also much likely to be pulled over, even in situations where police do not see the race of the person they are pulling over. Or when the officer is black. I don't think anyone is denying the racial element, but it's easier for me to see it as a symptom of intergenerational poverty and disenfranchisement rather than systemic malpractice from individual officers. In this case, I wouldn't want to downplay the progress we have made on policing the police. The only reason this study exists at all is because of the proliferation and availability of police body camera footage. That's a big win for everybody.
- malfist 3y ago
  > I don’t want to jump straight to racism because not every encounter That's a pretty high bar. Instead of "every encounter" being the bar, shouldn't the bar be "more often than the general population" or "more often than members not of this race"?
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    What if members of a particular race are more likely, on average, to drive in a way that would merit a more aggressive response from police? Disparity does not necessarily imply discrimination.
    - IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
      They probably get shot more on average for doing so.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      Yeah what if a little racism is good actually! Do you hear yourself.
    - mikestew 3y ago
      What if members of a particular race are more likely... I would advise caution with that phrase. Having grown up in a, shall we say, less enlightened area of the U. S., that phrase was the prefix to many a racist statement that I heard in my younger years. I'll assume, of course, that your intent is to just have a pleasant online conversation on the topic at hand.
      - Georgelemental 3y ago
        I grew up in possibly the single most "enlightened" area of the US. I won't deny that there were many advantages, but there was strong cognitive dissonance too. People say they are accepting and tolerant, and they genuinely believe it, and act on it. But they also spend a lot of money to live, and send their kids to school, far away from, shall we say, certain populations. Out of sight, out of mind…
- m463 3y ago
  I can think of plenty of reasons, like driving behavior vs expired plates or headlight out vs stolen car or bolo or plates matching person with warrant.
hobo_in_library 3y ago
I'm no fan of cops, but this article is low on evidence. They say first 45 words, but they only give two examples of snippets (e.g. "Turn the car off"). If a cop walks up to a car with the engines still running, they're right to be wary. There's very little to suggest what conversation happened before those critical few words, and if some more relevant cause is actually what led to the cop taking more aggressive measures, eventually leading to the search/cuffing/etc
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  If you click through to the study they are focused on a specific linguistic concept called dialog acts. Things that aren't part of dialog acts are not addressed in the study. You could take issue with that but it seems like a fairly rigorous approach that doesn't inherently dismiss other factors as being relevant. > If a cop walks up to a car with the engines still running, they're right to be wary. Are they? Do they handle this situation identically regardless of race? A thing you would need a study almost exactly like this one to find out.
- krger 3y ago
  >If a cop walks up to a car with the engines still running, they're right to be wary. Over the past 25 years, I've been pulled over maybe a dozen times or so for various things (speeding, headlight out), etc. Not once have I turned off the engine. Not once have I been instructed—or even asked—to turn off the engine. I'm white, but you probably guessed that already.
  - legitster 3y ago
    > Not once have I turned off the engine. Not once have I been instructed—or even asked—to turn off the engine. That could be where you live. It's pretty standard practice in this area. I've also been asked to step out of my car several times, and my dad once had guns pulled on him as part of a misunderstanding. It happens to white people too and it's bizarre to think that it would not?
    - 3y ago
legitster 3y ago
> Rho and her colleagues focused on Black drivers because this group is stopped by the police at higher rates and are more likely to be handcuffed, searched, and arrested than any other racial group. Okay, so this doesn't seem like a particularly useful study because they didn't actually include a control group. > Rho says in planning this study, they had initially set out to look at patterns related to traffic stop escalation for white drivers too, but realized that it happened so infrequently for white drivers that there just weren't sufficient numbers to even include them in the analysis. Okay, I'm sorry is this for real? The author just completely threw out the control? How is this not malpractice? So it could very well be that white drivers were issued the same set of commands at the same rate (for all we know). But we will never know because the author intentionally withheld the analysis that would have established the connection between the phrases used and race.
- giraffe_lady 3y ago
  "We wanted to use white people as control for arrest stats but the police don't arrest white people" seems like a result you would also want to publish.
  - legitster 3y ago
    > in the one-month period covered by this study, the city's police officers did 588 stops of Black drivers and only 262 stops of white drivers. So keep in mind they had recordings from 262 traffic stops of white drivers. If they had the data that said "white drivers" were 80% less likely to hear the escalatory phrases and so they didn't escalate - boom! That's an open and shut case. But them using the excuse of a lack of escalations to justify the complete absence of this data is just way too problematic.
    - giraffe_lady 3y ago
      They're being pretty clear about the limits on the data they had, the decision they made because of it, and why they made that decision. What exactly are you alleging here? Malpractice is a pretty strong word but also... vague. PNAS is fairly prestigious and there would be substantial reputational risk of malfeasance with this data. To me that carries a lot more weight than someone on the internet throwing unclear accusations around idk.
throwaway40351 3y ago
The goal of this study is not to establish that there is systemic racism in policing in general or in traffic stops in particular. That's been well documented, for decades, and it's surprising to see people denying it or expecting this study to reconfirm something so well established. This study is trying to connect the dots from early warning signs in a traffic stop to disproportionately-bad outcomes that are faced by minorities. They used the data they had to try to connect the dots, drew some inferences, but much more is left to be studied here.
- goodSteveramos 3y ago
  >That's been well documented, for decades I've been hearing bad faith arguments asserting that claim my entire life. I've never heard any compelling evidence that it is the case and been called a racist for asking for it.
trashface 3y ago
Why change the headline?
- mikestew 3y ago
  Original is three chars too long.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

32 points by heavyset_go 3y ago

I wonder if there has been any research into what motivates an officer to approach a traffic stop in a specific way. I don’t want to jump straight to racism because not every encounter with a Black motorist included the more aggressive posturing. When I’ve been pulled over, the officer spends some time in their car, I assume running my plates and the such. Perhaps past convictions or warrants influence the tone of subsequent interactions? Even so, it seems a good standard would be to always immediately mention the reason for the stop.

drekk 3y ago
When we're talking about 1% of white motorists experiencing an escalation vs 15% of black motorists it's hard to not see a racial element. Whether or not it's intentional is frankly besides the point. I agree a good standard would be to require mentioning the reason for the stop, but more importantly ending things like qualified immunity. There's zero accountability. Who polices the police?
- PraetorianGourd 3y ago
  I would want to see the data by income or other socioeconomic factors, in addition to race. And it can still be racism in that racism explains economic disparity to a degree. My intent isn’t to absolve racism from being primarily responsible.
- legitster 3y ago
  Black motorists are also much likely to be pulled over, even in situations where police do not see the race of the person they are pulling over. Or when the officer is black. I don't think anyone is denying the racial element, but it's easier for me to see it as a symptom of intergenerational poverty and disenfranchisement rather than systemic malpractice from individual officers. In this case, I wouldn't want to downplay the progress we have made on policing the police. The only reason this study exists at all is because of the proliferation and availability of police body camera footage. That's a big win for everybody.
malfist 3y ago
> I don’t want to jump straight to racism because not every encounter That's a pretty high bar. Instead of "every encounter" being the bar, shouldn't the bar be "more often than the general population" or "more often than members not of this race"?
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  What if members of a particular race are more likely, on average, to drive in a way that would merit a more aggressive response from police? Disparity does not necessarily imply discrimination.
  - IOT_Apprentice 3y ago
    They probably get shot more on average for doing so.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    Yeah what if a little racism is good actually! Do you hear yourself.
  - mikestew 3y ago
    What if members of a particular race are more likely... I would advise caution with that phrase. Having grown up in a, shall we say, less enlightened area of the U. S., that phrase was the prefix to many a racist statement that I heard in my younger years. I'll assume, of course, that your intent is to just have a pleasant online conversation on the topic at hand.
    - Georgelemental 3y ago
      I grew up in possibly the single most "enlightened" area of the US. I won't deny that there were many advantages, but there was strong cognitive dissonance too. People say they are accepting and tolerant, and they genuinely believe it, and act on it. But they also spend a lot of money to live, and send their kids to school, far away from, shall we say, certain populations. Out of sight, out of mind…
m463 3y ago
I can think of plenty of reasons, like driving behavior vs expired plates or headlight out vs stolen car or bolo or plates matching person with warrant.

hobo_in_library 3y ago

I'm no fan of cops, but this article is low on evidence. They say first 45 words, but they only give two examples of snippets (e.g. "Turn the car off"). If a cop walks up to a car with the engines still running, they're right to be wary. There's very little to suggest what conversation happened before those critical few words, and if some more relevant cause is actually what led to the cop taking more aggressive measures, eventually leading to the search/cuffing/etc

giraffe_lady 3y ago
If you click through to the study they are focused on a specific linguistic concept called dialog acts. Things that aren't part of dialog acts are not addressed in the study. You could take issue with that but it seems like a fairly rigorous approach that doesn't inherently dismiss other factors as being relevant. > If a cop walks up to a car with the engines still running, they're right to be wary. Are they? Do they handle this situation identically regardless of race? A thing you would need a study almost exactly like this one to find out.
krger 3y ago
>If a cop walks up to a car with the engines still running, they're right to be wary. Over the past 25 years, I've been pulled over maybe a dozen times or so for various things (speeding, headlight out), etc. Not once have I turned off the engine. Not once have I been instructed—or even asked—to turn off the engine. I'm white, but you probably guessed that already.
- legitster 3y ago
  > Not once have I turned off the engine. Not once have I been instructed—or even asked—to turn off the engine. That could be where you live. It's pretty standard practice in this area. I've also been asked to step out of my car several times, and my dad once had guns pulled on him as part of a misunderstanding. It happens to white people too and it's bizarre to think that it would not?
  - 3y ago

legitster 3y ago

> Rho and her colleagues focused on Black drivers because this group is stopped by the police at higher rates and are more likely to be handcuffed, searched, and arrested than any other racial group. Okay, so this doesn't seem like a particularly useful study because they didn't actually include a control group. > Rho says in planning this study, they had initially set out to look at patterns related to traffic stop escalation for white drivers too, but realized that it happened so infrequently for white drivers that there just weren't sufficient numbers to even include them in the analysis. Okay, I'm sorry is this for real? The author just completely threw out the control? How is this not malpractice? So it could very well be that white drivers were issued the same set of commands at the same rate (for all we know). But we will never know because the author intentionally withheld the analysis that would have established the connection between the phrases used and race.

giraffe_lady 3y ago
"We wanted to use white people as control for arrest stats but the police don't arrest white people" seems like a result you would also want to publish.
- legitster 3y ago
  > in the one-month period covered by this study, the city's police officers did 588 stops of Black drivers and only 262 stops of white drivers. So keep in mind they had recordings from 262 traffic stops of white drivers. If they had the data that said "white drivers" were 80% less likely to hear the escalatory phrases and so they didn't escalate - boom! That's an open and shut case. But them using the excuse of a lack of escalations to justify the complete absence of this data is just way too problematic.
  - giraffe_lady 3y ago
    They're being pretty clear about the limits on the data they had, the decision they made because of it, and why they made that decision. What exactly are you alleging here? Malpractice is a pretty strong word but also... vague. PNAS is fairly prestigious and there would be substantial reputational risk of malfeasance with this data. To me that carries a lot more weight than someone on the internet throwing unclear accusations around idk.

throwaway40351 3y ago

The goal of this study is not to establish that there is systemic racism in policing in general or in traffic stops in particular. That's been well documented, for decades, and it's surprising to see people denying it or expecting this study to reconfirm something so well established. This study is trying to connect the dots from early warning signs in a traffic stop to disproportionately-bad outcomes that are faced by minorities. They used the data they had to try to connect the dots, drew some inferences, but much more is left to be studied here.

goodSteveramos 3y ago
>That's been well documented, for decades I've been hearing bad faith arguments asserting that claim my entire life. I've never heard any compelling evidence that it is the case and been called a racist for asking for it.

trashface 3y ago

Why change the headline?

mikestew 3y ago
Original is three chars too long.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]