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Is every language supposed to come with HTTP and TLS stack, clients for every database, de/serializers for every format, every image and video codec, every de/c

by pornel 3y ago

Is every language supposed to come with HTTP and TLS stack, clients for every database, de/serializers for every format, every image and video codec, every de/compressor, GUI toolkits, 3D rendering, Bluetooth… where do you stop? And then how do you maintain all of this bloat to a competitive level, so that users don't need to reach for faster/newer alternative packages anyway? And how do you maintain portability and backward compatibility of a language with such a vast API surface? In modern development there's just too much stuff to keep everyone happy with batteries included. Sooner or later users will need something that isn't built in, and that will cause pain and crappy workarounds if the language doesn't have first-class support for dependencies.

JohnFen 3y ago
I suppose that I just never had a problem maintaining any dependencies in code I write. Package managers have long been a bit of a pain for me as a developer, and with some languages (like Python), they are a huge PITA for me as a normal user of applications. So overall I don't view them in a very positive light. They're something I have to put up with. No matter, it is what it is. Carry on. :)
- pornel 3y ago
  When Python was originally designed disk space was precious, and access to the Internet was rare, and its dependency management was designed for that world. Its multiple retrofitted package managers never fully fixed it. However, better integrated package managers can work well. In case of Node.js and Cargo, the main argument against them is that it's too easy to add dependencies.
  - throwawaymaths 3y ago
    Fundamentally the problem with python is that it's packages are global and every workaround except ~docker can't fix it except in a hacky way since the package resolution is specified in the language
    - zaphirplane 3y ago
      Tell us more, cause it’s not a problem I know
      - throwawaymaths 3y ago
        Try installing two pieces of software that depend on two different versions of tensorflow, then come back here.
        zaphirplane 3y ago
        I can install multiple python interpreters side by side each with independent packages and I can install different versions of the same python package for the same interpreter. I haven’t tried or had a need, by induction sounds possible :shrug:
        throwawaymaths 3y ago
        Tensorflow wheels are bound to cuda installation which is driver/sudo level. It's a nightmare.
pdntspa 3y ago
You could manage it like .net did before chocolatey/winget -- pretty much a free-for-all, just add yourself to the COM list through whatever means you want and have at it But that was a mess. I still have nightmares from dealing with windows assembly cache issues. Honestly it reminds me of some of the shit I've had to deal with with pip (what do you mean you can't resolve this dependency???)

by pornel 3y ago

JohnFen 3y ago

I suppose that I just never had a problem maintaining any dependencies in code I write. Package managers have long been a bit of a pain for me as a developer, and with some languages (like Python), they are a huge PITA for me as a normal user of applications. So overall I don't view them in a very positive light. They're something I have to put up with. No matter, it is what it is. Carry on. :)

pornel 3y ago
When Python was originally designed disk space was precious, and access to the Internet was rare, and its dependency management was designed for that world. Its multiple retrofitted package managers never fully fixed it. However, better integrated package managers can work well. In case of Node.js and Cargo, the main argument against them is that it's too easy to add dependencies.
- throwawaymaths 3y ago
  Fundamentally the problem with python is that it's packages are global and every workaround except ~docker can't fix it except in a hacky way since the package resolution is specified in the language
  - zaphirplane 3y ago
    Tell us more, cause it’s not a problem I know
    - throwawaymaths 3y ago
      Try installing two pieces of software that depend on two different versions of tensorflow, then come back here.
      - zaphirplane 3y ago
        I can install multiple python interpreters side by side each with independent packages and I can install different versions of the same python package for the same interpreter. I haven’t tried or had a need, by induction sounds possible :shrug:
        throwawaymaths 3y ago
        Tensorflow wheels are bound to cuda installation which is driver/sudo level. It's a nightmare.

pdntspa 3y ago

You could manage it like .net did before chocolatey/winget -- pretty much a free-for-all, just add yourself to the COM list through whatever means you want and have at it But that was a mess. I still have nightmares from dealing with windows assembly cache issues. Honestly it reminds me of some of the shit I've had to deal with with pip (what do you mean you can't resolve this dependency???)