4 ms·

Unless you're talking about some extremely niche tournament, that's not how it works at all, in football at least. In the majority of league systems you get 3 p

by smcl 3y ago

Unless you're talking about some extremely niche tournament, that's not how it works at all, in football at least. In the majority of league systems you get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and that's it. If you are level on points with another team in your group after all games are played then there will be strictly defined rules for that tournament to separate the teams, often a combination of the following in some order of precedence: - head-to-head results between tied teams - total goal difference, i.e. sum(goals_scored) - sum(goals_conceded) across all games - total goals scored across all games - disciplinary record (number of yellow/red cards awarded against players) If teams still cannot be separated, it'll fall back on something as simple and cruel as a coin-toss - though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties if the tied teams are playing each other in the last game. Maybe you're thinking of situations like rugby where you can get a "bonus point" games in group stages by scoring 4 tries or keeping the losing margin down to a handful of points. In any case, I can't give a good reason as to why 3-0 is usually the score given for a walkover - I think it's just generally considered to be a convincing win that isn't too over-the-top.

dylan604 3y ago
Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Edit: >though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties As a referee, when a tournament is on the last day, it is not uncommon to hear various tournament officials saying within earshot of the refs "we need winners". This is of course a plausible deniability way of saying "be generous with penalties".
- Denvercoder9 3y ago
  > Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Where? I've never seen or heard of this scoring system being used in continental Europe (not even in the little kids leagues), and it's also not what's used in the professional tournaments (World Cup, Euros, Copa America, Champions League, etc).
  - LanceH 3y ago
    He's not talking pro leagues, but the kinds of leagues where you make a team and sign up for a weekend tournament. That scoring system is very common.
    - smcl 3y ago
      GP mentioned this though: > not even in the little kids leagues It might just be something that is very common somewhere or at some level (dunno where), but it's pretty alien to the pair of us and would be for most/all of continental Europe at the very least.
      - LanceH 3y ago
        Come to think of it, I haven't seen it since the 90's -- all in the US. But I haven't played weekend tournaments since then.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      Too right. You think if I played, coached, and refereed in a professional league, I'd be spending my time reading HN? ha!
    - drowsspa 3y ago
      Is it? I'm Brazilian and I never heard of it.
      - jamiek88 3y ago
        I’m English and I haven’t either. I’ve also played in UK, Middle East, Spain, France, USA and Canada. From organized leagues to games with mates and pub type tournaments and have never come across that convoluted system.
- smcl 3y ago
  In what country and in what sport? Was it younger kids, maybe? I'm not doubting you, I'm genuinely curious because this is incredibly bizarre to me. I dug around on wikipedia and found a couple of dozen examples of some unusual points scoring given[0] but only a handful of smaller US leagues long in the past featured this bonus-points-per-goal system, and seemingly only ever for a short period (experiment?) Thinking about it, bonus points are maybe a fun way to spice up small-sided games. I think there'd be uproar if it was considered for anything beyond that though :) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_tournament_ranking_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_tournament_ranking_syste...
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Between actually getting work done and looking for a way to provide an answer, I've had a hard time getting a link to send. The closest I've come is a scoring method called 10 Point System where it's slight different in W=6 points, D=3 points, bonus point per goal (max 3), bonus point for shut out. So I could have mis-remembered the points I initially stated. It's been 10+ years since I've participated in those tourneys. The world is a much bigger place than central Europe and people do things differently in those other places. Not everyone plays with the exact rules like those house rules in Monopoly. In UIL soccer (governing body for Texas High School sports), the rules get totally goofy. First, the center referee has to make hand signals similar to American Football refs by winding the clock to indicate to the clock operator to start the clock, crossing the arms above their head to indicate to STOP the clock (WTF!!), free substitution so a player can be brought back onto the field after being subbed off, players must be subbed when issued a yellow card and allowed to come back on at a later time (thought to allow teenagers to cool down before escalating hormones get the better of them), indirect free kicks awarded to team in possession in lieu of drop ball restarts. Those are the main ones that I remember. Oh, and in UIL, there is a referee system called Duals where you have 2 officials on the field and both have whistles. They each run a diagonal system in their respective half. This is used when not enough officials are available to do the traditional center + 2 assistants
    - smcl 3y ago
      That's cool, I had absolutely no idea! So while I may have suggested in other comments that I didn't love European FAs fiddling with the offside rule and VAR, I do appreciate a bit of innovation and creativity and it sounds like the US is willing to experiment which is great to see. I happily retract my earlier confident assertion about how points work in groups/leagues :) On another note, I've really enjoyed seeing the game over there going from strength to strength, I hope you're enjoying it too and continue to stay involved at some level!
- drowsspa 3y ago
  That must be very US-specific, it just sounds American. But the 3 point thing definitely has nothing to do with this oddity of scoring
  - dylan604 3y ago
    then why not 1-0 scores?
    - smcl 3y ago
      It's a good question but I don't think there's any good answer other than "1-0 or 2-0 doesn't feel like punishment enough". Interesingly, for two-legged cup competitions a forfeit likely won't result in a 3-0 loss, but a disqualification instead. So if you're winning 4-0 or 5-0 and can't be bothered showing up for the return fixture, you can't just forfeit and win 4-3 or 5-3 on aggregate, you have to fulfil the fixture. And additionally, not showing up for a game might not even cause you to forfeit. Estonia didn't turn up to a European Qualifier against my national team, we didn't get a walkover and had to replay (which we won 1-0): https://twitter.com/90sfootball/status/1297216969326780416 https://twitter.com/90sfootball/status/1297216969326780416
      - dylan604 3y ago
        I've officiated games where the weather was lousy (our leagues are pretty fair weathered) and one team was heading for state championship and the opposing team was just getting slaughtered (double digit to nil at half). League rules say if the game was abandoned in the first half, the game must be replayed. NOBODY wanted that (plus there was no room left in schedule), so as agreed by both teams immediately after bringing the first half to an end, the teams switched sides, the second half was started and immediately abandoned due to inclement weather. Since it was in the second half, the score stood as final.
      - playingalong 3y ago
        Not really disqualified. 3-0. And sometimes it matters a lot whether it's 3-0 or 2-0. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/08/celtic-reinstated-champions-league-uefa-legia-warsaw https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/08/celtic-rein...
emmelaich 3y ago
It's absolutely the case for football / soccer "carnivals" in Australia to have modified scoring to ensure a decision. In an individual game, the number of penalty corners is also considered if goals are even. Also (I think) number of offsides.

by smcl 3y ago

dylan604 3y ago

Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Edit: >though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties As a referee, when a tournament is on the last day, it is not uncommon to hear various tournament officials saying within earshot of the refs "we need winners". This is of course a plausible deniability way of saying "be generous with penalties".

Denvercoder9 3y ago
> Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Where? I've never seen or heard of this scoring system being used in continental Europe (not even in the little kids leagues), and it's also not what's used in the professional tournaments (World Cup, Euros, Copa America, Champions League, etc).
- LanceH 3y ago
  He's not talking pro leagues, but the kinds of leagues where you make a team and sign up for a weekend tournament. That scoring system is very common.
  - smcl 3y ago
    GP mentioned this though: > not even in the little kids leagues It might just be something that is very common somewhere or at some level (dunno where), but it's pretty alien to the pair of us and would be for most/all of continental Europe at the very least.
    - LanceH 3y ago
      Come to think of it, I haven't seen it since the 90's -- all in the US. But I haven't played weekend tournaments since then.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Too right. You think if I played, coached, and refereed in a professional league, I'd be spending my time reading HN? ha!
  - drowsspa 3y ago
    Is it? I'm Brazilian and I never heard of it.
    - jamiek88 3y ago
      I’m English and I haven’t either. I’ve also played in UK, Middle East, Spain, France, USA and Canada. From organized leagues to games with mates and pub type tournaments and have never come across that convoluted system.
smcl 3y ago
In what country and in what sport? Was it younger kids, maybe? I'm not doubting you, I'm genuinely curious because this is incredibly bizarre to me. I dug around on wikipedia and found a couple of dozen examples of some unusual points scoring given[0] but only a handful of smaller US leagues long in the past featured this bonus-points-per-goal system, and seemingly only ever for a short period (experiment?) Thinking about it, bonus points are maybe a fun way to spice up small-sided games. I think there'd be uproar if it was considered for anything beyond that though :) [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_tournament_ranking_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Group_tournament_ranking_syste...
- dylan604 3y ago
  Between actually getting work done and looking for a way to provide an answer, I've had a hard time getting a link to send. The closest I've come is a scoring method called 10 Point System where it's slight different in W=6 points, D=3 points, bonus point per goal (max 3), bonus point for shut out. So I could have mis-remembered the points I initially stated. It's been 10+ years since I've participated in those tourneys. The world is a much bigger place than central Europe and people do things differently in those other places. Not everyone plays with the exact rules like those house rules in Monopoly. In UIL soccer (governing body for Texas High School sports), the rules get totally goofy. First, the center referee has to make hand signals similar to American Football refs by winding the clock to indicate to the clock operator to start the clock, crossing the arms above their head to indicate to STOP the clock (WTF!!), free substitution so a player can be brought back onto the field after being subbed off, players must be subbed when issued a yellow card and allowed to come back on at a later time (thought to allow teenagers to cool down before escalating hormones get the better of them), indirect free kicks awarded to team in possession in lieu of drop ball restarts. Those are the main ones that I remember. Oh, and in UIL, there is a referee system called Duals where you have 2 officials on the field and both have whistles. They each run a diagonal system in their respective half. This is used when not enough officials are available to do the traditional center + 2 assistants
  - smcl 3y ago
    That's cool, I had absolutely no idea! So while I may have suggested in other comments that I didn't love European FAs fiddling with the offside rule and VAR, I do appreciate a bit of innovation and creativity and it sounds like the US is willing to experiment which is great to see. I happily retract my earlier confident assertion about how points work in groups/leagues :) On another note, I've really enjoyed seeing the game over there going from strength to strength, I hope you're enjoying it too and continue to stay involved at some level!
drowsspa 3y ago
That must be very US-specific, it just sounds American. But the 3 point thing definitely has nothing to do with this oddity of scoring
- dylan604 3y ago
  then why not 1-0 scores?
  - smcl 3y ago
    It's a good question but I don't think there's any good answer other than "1-0 or 2-0 doesn't feel like punishment enough". Interesingly, for two-legged cup competitions a forfeit likely won't result in a 3-0 loss, but a disqualification instead. So if you're winning 4-0 or 5-0 and can't be bothered showing up for the return fixture, you can't just forfeit and win 4-3 or 5-3 on aggregate, you have to fulfil the fixture. And additionally, not showing up for a game might not even cause you to forfeit. Estonia didn't turn up to a European Qualifier against my national team, we didn't get a walkover and had to replay (which we won 1-0): https://twitter.com/90sfootball/status/1297216969326780416 https://twitter.com/90sfootball/status/1297216969326780416
    - dylan604 3y ago
      I've officiated games where the weather was lousy (our leagues are pretty fair weathered) and one team was heading for state championship and the opposing team was just getting slaughtered (double digit to nil at half). League rules say if the game was abandoned in the first half, the game must be replayed. NOBODY wanted that (plus there was no room left in schedule), so as agreed by both teams immediately after bringing the first half to an end, the teams switched sides, the second half was started and immediately abandoned due to inclement weather. Since it was in the second half, the score stood as final.
    - playingalong 3y ago
      Not really disqualified. 3-0. And sometimes it matters a lot whether it's 3-0 or 2-0. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/08/celtic-reinstated-champions-league-uefa-legia-warsaw https://www.theguardian.com/football/2014/aug/08/celtic-rein...

emmelaich 3y ago

It's absolutely the case for football / soccer "carnivals" in Australia to have modified scoring to ensure a decision. In an individual game, the number of penalty corners is also considered if goals are even. Also (I think) number of offsides.