7 ms·

One other weird thing: When a soccer player who is not a goalkeeper prevents a goal by catching the ball with their hands, they "just" get a red card and the at

One other weird thing: When a soccer player who is not a goalkeeper prevents a goal by catching the ball with their hands, they "just" get a red card and the attacking team a penalty, even if they would have certainly scored otherwise. Luis Suarez successfully used this in the 2010 World Cup quarter-finals in the Uruguay vs Ghana game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM-29hy-Qyw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM-29hy-Qyw - Ghana missed the penalty, which led to a penalty shootout, which Uruguay won. Skimming through the laws of the game (https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/laws-of-the-game-2022-23?l=en https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/laws-of-the-game-202...) I do wonder whether a trainer and up to 4 other players (because a team which can field less than 7 players forfeits the game) climbing on the crossbar until it breaks could be advantageous in some situation as well since > If it cannot be repaired the match must be abandoned. Very unsportsmanlike indeed.

permo-w 3y ago
the game would be abandoned, but almost certainly it would be a 3-0 forfeit win to the opposition. perhaps if 3-0 goal difference was advantageous?
- dylan604 3y ago
  for those wondering why 3-0, it's based on tournament points scoring. you get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw, a point for each goal (maximum of 3 points for goals) per game, and an additional point for the shutout. so, each game in tournament scoring is worth 7 points. after all of those points are added, goal differentials can come into consideration for tie breakers.
  - smcl 3y ago
    Unless you're talking about some extremely niche tournament, that's not how it works at all, in football at least. In the majority of league systems you get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and that's it. If you are level on points with another team in your group after all games are played then there will be strictly defined rules for that tournament to separate the teams, often a combination of the following in some order of precedence: - head-to-head results between tied teams - total goal difference, i.e. sum(goals_scored) - sum(goals_conceded) across all games - total goals scored across all games - disciplinary record (number of yellow/red cards awarded against players) If teams still cannot be separated, it'll fall back on something as simple and cruel as a coin-toss - though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties if the tied teams are playing each other in the last game. Maybe you're thinking of situations like rugby where you can get a "bonus point" games in group stages by scoring 4 tries or keeping the losing margin down to a handful of points. In any case, I can't give a good reason as to why 3-0 is usually the score given for a walkover - I think it's just generally considered to be a convincing win that isn't too over-the-top.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Edit: >though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties As a referee, when a tournament is on the last day, it is not uncommon to hear various tournament officials saying within earshot of the refs "we need winners". This is of course a plausible deniability way of saying "be generous with penalties".
      - Denvercoder9 3y ago
        > Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Where? I've never seen or heard of this scoring system being used in continental Europe (not even in the little kids leagues), and it's also not what's used in the professional tournaments (World Cup, Euros, Copa America, Champions League, etc).
        LanceH 3y ago
        He's not talking pro leagues, but the kinds of leagues where you make a team and sign up for a weekend tournament. That scoring system is very common.
        smcl 3y ago
        GP mentioned this though: > not even in the little kids leagues It might just be something that is very common somewhere or at some level (dunno where), but it's pretty alien to the pair of us and would be for most/all of continental Europe at the very least.
        LanceH 3y ago
        Come to think of it, I haven't seen it since the 90's -- all in the US. But I haven't played weekend tournaments since then.
        3y ago
- boosteri 3y ago
  Good to get this cleared up. I had 5-0 in the back of my mind .. putting it down to too much SWOS back in the heyday
  - permo-w 3y ago
    SWOS?
    - ricardo81 3y ago
      Sensible World of Soccer would be my guess.
smcl 3y ago
Interestingly in rugby they have a concept called a "penalty try" - effectively when there's a particular infringement against a team in a scoring position, the referee awards the points to the attacking team as if they had gone ahead and scored. See here for an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAq-xp54j1w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAq-xp54j1w The play gets repeated a couple of times and explained in some detail throughout but you can see what happens in the first few seconds of the video - blue is about to receive the ball in an incredibly advantageous position (a couple of steps away from scoring) white performs a deliberate foul in defending that play (they deliberately knock it forward and out of play, without trying to catch it). There's more to it than just "a very egregious foul against an attacker" but it's a good-enough simplification for our purposes. People are already quite resistant to VAR in football already (got my own opinions on that) so I think there's virtually zero chance of football adopting this. But if ever there was an argument for it, it's definitely that Suarez case in 2010, Ghana were cheated out of an historic World Cup semifinal appearance.
- DoneWithAllThat 3y ago
  Exactly the same concept exists in NHL hockey by the way. In particular, if a player attacking an empty net (because the goaltender has been pulled late in the game to add another skater) is interfered with from behind, or a thrown stick disrupts his shot, the goal is just awarded on the assumption that the attacker would have almost certainly scored.
  - fineIllregister 3y ago
    A similar concept exists in American football, but it is rarely invoked. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_act
golemiprague 3y ago
[dead]
JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago
> > Skimming through the laws of the game (https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/laws-of-the-game-202 https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/laws-of-the-game-202...) I do wonder whether a trainer and up to 4 other players (because a team which can field less than 7 players forfeits the game) climbing on the crossbar until it breaks could be advantageous in some situation as well since If it cannot be repaired the match must be abandoned. Most of these rules are there, but if somebody were to try and obviously abuse them (for example damaging the crossbar or the net) they'd be disqualified due to common sense. For example, back in 1991 during the Quarter Final of the European Club Cup Marseille was winning 1-0 against AC Milan, they had the victory in their pocket but in stoppage time a blackout hit Marseille's Velodrome stadium and lights went out. After a few minutes the electricity returned but stadium lights would need 15-20 minutes to be ready again. AC Milan board stormed onto the pitch and took the occasion to forcefully send their players in the locker-room and de-facto retire the team hoping to somehow avoid defeat and have some ground to protest for a repetition of the match. Their claim is that during the blackout TV crews and fans descended onto the pitch and there would be grounds for a disqualification of Marseille or at least a replay. UEFA didn't like that at all and instead banned the club board and the whole A.C. Milan squad from European competition for 2 years. http://tdifh.blogspot.com/2012/03/20-march-1991-night-lights-went-out-in.html http://tdifh.blogspot.com/2012/03/20-march-1991-night-lights...

permo-w 3y ago

the game would be abandoned, but almost certainly it would be a 3-0 forfeit win to the opposition. perhaps if 3-0 goal difference was advantageous?

dylan604 3y ago
for those wondering why 3-0, it's based on tournament points scoring. you get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw, a point for each goal (maximum of 3 points for goals) per game, and an additional point for the shutout. so, each game in tournament scoring is worth 7 points. after all of those points are added, goal differentials can come into consideration for tie breakers.
- smcl 3y ago
  Unless you're talking about some extremely niche tournament, that's not how it works at all, in football at least. In the majority of league systems you get 3 points for a win, 1 point for a draw and that's it. If you are level on points with another team in your group after all games are played then there will be strictly defined rules for that tournament to separate the teams, often a combination of the following in some order of precedence: - head-to-head results between tied teams - total goal difference, i.e. sum(goals_scored) - sum(goals_conceded) across all games - total goals scored across all games - disciplinary record (number of yellow/red cards awarded against players) If teams still cannot be separated, it'll fall back on something as simple and cruel as a coin-toss - though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties if the tied teams are playing each other in the last game. Maybe you're thinking of situations like rugby where you can get a "bonus point" games in group stages by scoring 4 tries or keeping the losing margin down to a handful of points. In any case, I can't give a good reason as to why 3-0 is usually the score given for a walkover - I think it's just generally considered to be a convincing win that isn't too over-the-top.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Edit: >though maybe they could go to extra time and penalties As a referee, when a tournament is on the last day, it is not uncommon to hear various tournament officials saying within earshot of the refs "we need winners". This is of course a plausible deniability way of saying "be generous with penalties".
    - Denvercoder9 3y ago
      > Throughout my life, I've been a player, coach, and referee. In each of those roles, I have been in tournaments where this was the way the tournament was scored. Where? I've never seen or heard of this scoring system being used in continental Europe (not even in the little kids leagues), and it's also not what's used in the professional tournaments (World Cup, Euros, Copa America, Champions League, etc).
      - LanceH 3y ago
        He's not talking pro leagues, but the kinds of leagues where you make a team and sign up for a weekend tournament. That scoring system is very common.
        smcl 3y ago
        GP mentioned this though: > not even in the little kids leagues It might just be something that is very common somewhere or at some level (dunno where), but it's pretty alien to the pair of us and would be for most/all of continental Europe at the very least.
        LanceH 3y ago
        Come to think of it, I haven't seen it since the 90's -- all in the US. But I haven't played weekend tournaments since then.
        3y ago
boosteri 3y ago
Good to get this cleared up. I had 5-0 in the back of my mind .. putting it down to too much SWOS back in the heyday
- permo-w 3y ago
  SWOS?
  - ricardo81 3y ago
    Sensible World of Soccer would be my guess.

smcl 3y ago

Interestingly in rugby they have a concept called a "penalty try" - effectively when there's a particular infringement against a team in a scoring position, the referee awards the points to the attacking team as if they had gone ahead and scored. See here for an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAq-xp54j1w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAq-xp54j1w The play gets repeated a couple of times and explained in some detail throughout but you can see what happens in the first few seconds of the video - blue is about to receive the ball in an incredibly advantageous position (a couple of steps away from scoring) white performs a deliberate foul in defending that play (they deliberately knock it forward and out of play, without trying to catch it). There's more to it than just "a very egregious foul against an attacker" but it's a good-enough simplification for our purposes. People are already quite resistant to VAR in football already (got my own opinions on that) so I think there's virtually zero chance of football adopting this. But if ever there was an argument for it, it's definitely that Suarez case in 2010, Ghana were cheated out of an historic World Cup semifinal appearance.

DoneWithAllThat 3y ago
Exactly the same concept exists in NHL hockey by the way. In particular, if a player attacking an empty net (because the goaltender has been pulled late in the game to add another skater) is interfered with from behind, or a thrown stick disrupts his shot, the goal is just awarded on the assumption that the attacker would have almost certainly scored.
- fineIllregister 3y ago
  A similar concept exists in American football, but it is rarely invoked. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_act https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unfair_act

golemiprague 3y ago

[dead]

JumpinJack_Cash 3y ago

> > Skimming through the laws of the game (https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/laws-of-the-game-202 https://downloads.theifab.com/downloads/laws-of-the-game-202...) I do wonder whether a trainer and up to 4 other players (because a team which can field less than 7 players forfeits the game) climbing on the crossbar until it breaks could be advantageous in some situation as well since If it cannot be repaired the match must be abandoned. Most of these rules are there, but if somebody were to try and obviously abuse them (for example damaging the crossbar or the net) they'd be disqualified due to common sense. For example, back in 1991 during the Quarter Final of the European Club Cup Marseille was winning 1-0 against AC Milan, they had the victory in their pocket but in stoppage time a blackout hit Marseille's Velodrome stadium and lights went out. After a few minutes the electricity returned but stadium lights would need 15-20 minutes to be ready again. AC Milan board stormed onto the pitch and took the occasion to forcefully send their players in the locker-room and de-facto retire the team hoping to somehow avoid defeat and have some ground to protest for a repetition of the match. Their claim is that during the blackout TV crews and fans descended onto the pitch and there would be grounds for a disqualification of Marseille or at least a replay. UEFA didn't like that at all and instead banned the club board and the whole A.C. Milan squad from European competition for 2 years. http://tdifh.blogspot.com/2012/03/20-march-1991-night-lights-went-out-in.html http://tdifh.blogspot.com/2012/03/20-march-1991-night-lights...