4 ms·

'Hated by locals' is a stretch. I don't think the number of digital nomads is enough to have any meaningful impact on rents or real estate prices in most count

'Hated by locals' is a stretch. I don't think the number of digital nomads is enough to have any meaningful impact on rents or real estate prices in most countries. This is just xenophobia in another form.

hef19898 3y ago
A whole of locals, from Lissabon to Bali, actually might disagree. Not to talk about the defacto visa and tax fraud some digital nomads commit. Nothing wrong with going to live and work in a certain place. But do it the proper way: get a work visa if you have to and register for taxes like everyone else. Otherwise your taxes not paid are an unfair advantage compared to locals, it is illegal and basically cheating.
- vr46 3y ago
  My friend who started having a public affair with a local woman - Indonesia - could have easily gotten himself killed, TBH I’m surprised he’s still alive.
  - colpabar 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - Frummy 3y ago
    Really, why could that have gotten him killed?
  - jalk 3y ago
    Sounds like your friend overstepped local cultural norms which is quite the opposite of "integration"
- garbagecoder 3y ago
  No, those people are mad about Airbnb and that's not the same thing. I have rented my vacation home for years and maybe once did I have a "digital nomad." And I don't know about Bali, but I pay taxes through the nose on each rental for them and the property taxes and income taxes if I make a profit or not (not in the US). I'm happy to do it, I'm not complaining about paying them but don't tell me I don't. Also these things happen because the locals' governments enabled it. Many countries even have a "digital nomad" visa, but if you allow visa-free entry and all people are doing is using the Internet, then again, that's internal immigration laws. There's no "cheating" at all. It's not like a "digital nomad" in Lisbon got free health care, tuition, or transport and if their landlords aren't paying property tax or income tax, again, that's not really the fault of the tenants. Locals are upset about housing policy and they probably should be. Neighbors are upset about all of their neighborhoods turning into transient AirBnB pitstops with tenants who are rude and loud and they should. But being mad at the people who just clicked online and showed up there is misdirected. It's either landlords who don't enforce rules or governments who don't limit the number of vacation rentals in historical areas. You read these articles and act like everyone is going to look at you with side eye as you walk around. But I just spend a week in Lisbon and it was great and everyone was friendly. Probably the AirBnB model needs to be banned in many places and only bona fide rentals of full places should be allowed, but it depends on the place. If you're in an entire development in a tourist area, everyone's a tourist. Places like downtown Lisbon or Barcelona and other places people are upset should probably ban or limit the number allowed. But anyway, no one is particularly mad at "digital nomads" this is a clickbait article. t. knower
  - x3874 3y ago
    > Probably the AirBnB model needs to be banned in many places and only bona fide rentals of full places should be allowed, but it depends on the place. So because these transient tourist / influencer types or long-term stay idiots who can't behave (i just happen to have to deal with such a "noisy & unconcerned about others type" in the adjoining room - he is Viennese so his personality is kind of self-"explaining) leave 'skidmarks' in neighboorhoods, other travellers who know how to behave and kind of blend in should suffer, i.e. paying thse huge charges for hotels that provide less value? Never would i have had such great times if not being able to travel for a longer period or more often -because great value with local contacts- if not for Airbnb. Got invited for all kinds of events and dinner, even on Christmas.
  - saltcured 3y ago
    I agree the main issues are about perceived impact of itinerant visitors (who treat a community like their amusement park) and spending disparity (paradoxically giving locals income and also driving up prices). And, those who are visibly "foreign" are easier targets to vent when frustrated. Ignoring that, I am following the tangential topic about digital nomads, work visas, and taxes. I think the regulations are still trying to catch up. Some folks have a fantasy that when the internet is involved, they are working in cyberspace at the remote end of their network connections. But, the actual rules in most jurisdictions tend to be about your physical location while working. They usually lack any clear rules to disambiguate the spectrum from "traveler on holiday making a few phone calls" and "permanent work from home with foreign employer". This is a gray area and relies on selective enforcement. My experience is a little dated, but I think it is still, sadly, too relevant. I was an expat in SEA about 20 years ago. I was not an itinerant nomad. My partner took a local job there and I went along for the adventure, so we tried to settle in one place. But, my best work prospects remained in the US tech market, just like a digital nomad. My US clients knew they didn't want the hassle of hiring me outside their normal tax jurisdiction, nor the legal risk of pretending I lived in a US mailbox. All the legal advice we could find led to one frustrating answer. To be totally legal, we had to start a local consulting company and take on some local staff (and local shareholders!) so that our company could sponsor my work permit. This also awarded me the right kind of extended visa and proper re-entry permits for when I needed to travel internationally. Our company then had to engage my US "employer" via subcontract. We effectively had to have local staff on retainer even though I didn't need them to satisfy my US client's needs. We had the accounting and tax headaches of running that company, plus local personal income taxes in our host country. Then, as a US citizen, I still had to file US income taxes and try to get all the exclusions and credits to avoid double taxation. Aside from losing money to pay unnecessary local staff, it was difficult to minimize profits that would distribute to the shareholders for what was just an overly complicated solo consultancy. At the same time, I was well aware that others were flying below the radar. They ritualized "visa runs" to cross borders and reenter on temporary tourist visas. They played games where they told a different story to each jurisdiction about where they were really domiciled. I've often wondered how many of them succeeded in this cheating game for decades since I knew them, or whether they eventually got caught up in some kind of financial disaster.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- tayo42 3y ago
  i spent a month in bali after covid, and the ones i talked to were happy to have tourists back. i heard miserable stories from selling everything, going back to farming to survive, personal businesses gone, pets dying because they couldn't take care of them. You cant make generalizations about what people want and don't want. its more complex then that.
  - witchesindublin 3y ago
    South East Asia has been against long term tourists for many years now. They want all the "families" and richer tourists who stay for a few days in expensive hotels that hire lots of local workers.
    - bigbillheck 3y ago
      My dad retired to Thailand 20 years ago and until he got too sick to take care of himself had no problems with any of it. (And after he got sick and before he passed, the home we managed to get him placed in helped him get a 'humanitarian exemption' to being deported for visa crimes).
      - witchesindublin 3y ago
        They aren't going to kick out elderly tourists who have been there for years, but it is a new move to encourage wealthier tourists that contribute more to jobs and the wider economy. South East Asia also know that they can't maintain the low cost lifestyle on one hand and help their people become richer on the other hand.
    - ilyt 3y ago
      Well, it's no wonder, all the taxes the nomads pay are not paid to them...
  - arp242 3y ago
    I was in Bali during COVID, got there a Oct 2019 and stayed for two years in total. The reasons for this are very much economical: COVID was pretty brutal for a lot of people who make their living off tourism, as you mentioned. For many locals it's very much a love-hate relationship. They love the money it brings in and hate pretty much everything else. As soon as you complain about anything – no matter how justified – there's a very real chance you'll be told to fuck off to your own country. And to be honest I don't blame them either. There really are a whole bunch of right twats in Bali and even I got pretty tired of it quickly. For example the number of white people not wearing a mask in stores etc. was just staggering.
jakub_g 3y ago
Just this week I was reading the average rent in Lisbon those days is more than the local salary.
- witchesindublin 3y ago
  Airbnb is also another culprit. Most major cities in Europe are suffering from the strong US dollar, Airbnb and digital nomads. Portugal and Spain are usually big draws for tourists and retirees from UK and Northern Europe, so there is some understanding but the situation is ridiculous.
witchesindublin 3y ago
Digital nomads are a major problem in several countries including most of South East Asia and Portugal, and major cities in these regions are having inflated prices due to digital nomads.
- varelse 3y ago
  [dead]
- tayo42 3y ago
  every city has this same complaint about prices. at some point maybe we need to finally stop demonizing the bad group of the moment and look what is really causing problems
  - witchesindublin 3y ago
    In Europe and much of Asia, there is usually a core area that is very historic and very exclusive/desirable to live in, and of course by virtue it's hard to expand a historic area. These areas have been turned into a mixture of tourist areas and digital nomad areas, usually for Americans due to the strong dollar, and out-priced all the locals to the point that these areas have no life or character. I read complaints from Americans about how these areas are too expensive and have no life and how there are other European/Asian cities which are better, not realising that it is they themselves who are causing the problems.
    - tayo42 3y ago
      i know the complaints and stories, but its never been scientific. just blaming the outside group. but these rising prices are happening all over the world. its americans going over the entire world raising prices? or airbnb is the other culprit always. seems unlikely. its always trust me im local, its the outside group. every city ive lived and looked at lviing in, this same exact complaint about rising prices is happening. even in america too.
    - ilyt 3y ago
      Tourist traps happened organically for locals before the digital nomads came. As did tourism
cowuser666 3y ago
I heard resentment towards remote workers based on their perceived effect on rents when vacationing in Santa Teresa, Costa Rica recently.

hef19898 3y ago

A whole of locals, from Lissabon to Bali, actually might disagree. Not to talk about the defacto visa and tax fraud some digital nomads commit. Nothing wrong with going to live and work in a certain place. But do it the proper way: get a work visa if you have to and register for taxes like everyone else. Otherwise your taxes not paid are an unfair advantage compared to locals, it is illegal and basically cheating.

vr46 3y ago
My friend who started having a public affair with a local woman - Indonesia - could have easily gotten himself killed, TBH I’m surprised he’s still alive.
- colpabar 3y ago
  [flagged]
- Frummy 3y ago
  Really, why could that have gotten him killed?
- jalk 3y ago
  Sounds like your friend overstepped local cultural norms which is quite the opposite of "integration"
garbagecoder 3y ago
No, those people are mad about Airbnb and that's not the same thing. I have rented my vacation home for years and maybe once did I have a "digital nomad." And I don't know about Bali, but I pay taxes through the nose on each rental for them and the property taxes and income taxes if I make a profit or not (not in the US). I'm happy to do it, I'm not complaining about paying them but don't tell me I don't. Also these things happen because the locals' governments enabled it. Many countries even have a "digital nomad" visa, but if you allow visa-free entry and all people are doing is using the Internet, then again, that's internal immigration laws. There's no "cheating" at all. It's not like a "digital nomad" in Lisbon got free health care, tuition, or transport and if their landlords aren't paying property tax or income tax, again, that's not really the fault of the tenants. Locals are upset about housing policy and they probably should be. Neighbors are upset about all of their neighborhoods turning into transient AirBnB pitstops with tenants who are rude and loud and they should. But being mad at the people who just clicked online and showed up there is misdirected. It's either landlords who don't enforce rules or governments who don't limit the number of vacation rentals in historical areas. You read these articles and act like everyone is going to look at you with side eye as you walk around. But I just spend a week in Lisbon and it was great and everyone was friendly. Probably the AirBnB model needs to be banned in many places and only bona fide rentals of full places should be allowed, but it depends on the place. If you're in an entire development in a tourist area, everyone's a tourist. Places like downtown Lisbon or Barcelona and other places people are upset should probably ban or limit the number allowed. But anyway, no one is particularly mad at "digital nomads" this is a clickbait article. t. knower
- x3874 3y ago
  > Probably the AirBnB model needs to be banned in many places and only bona fide rentals of full places should be allowed, but it depends on the place. So because these transient tourist / influencer types or long-term stay idiots who can't behave (i just happen to have to deal with such a "noisy & unconcerned about others type" in the adjoining room - he is Viennese so his personality is kind of self-"explaining) leave 'skidmarks' in neighboorhoods, other travellers who know how to behave and kind of blend in should suffer, i.e. paying thse huge charges for hotels that provide less value? Never would i have had such great times if not being able to travel for a longer period or more often -because great value with local contacts- if not for Airbnb. Got invited for all kinds of events and dinner, even on Christmas.
- saltcured 3y ago
  I agree the main issues are about perceived impact of itinerant visitors (who treat a community like their amusement park) and spending disparity (paradoxically giving locals income and also driving up prices). And, those who are visibly "foreign" are easier targets to vent when frustrated. Ignoring that, I am following the tangential topic about digital nomads, work visas, and taxes. I think the regulations are still trying to catch up. Some folks have a fantasy that when the internet is involved, they are working in cyberspace at the remote end of their network connections. But, the actual rules in most jurisdictions tend to be about your physical location while working. They usually lack any clear rules to disambiguate the spectrum from "traveler on holiday making a few phone calls" and "permanent work from home with foreign employer". This is a gray area and relies on selective enforcement. My experience is a little dated, but I think it is still, sadly, too relevant. I was an expat in SEA about 20 years ago. I was not an itinerant nomad. My partner took a local job there and I went along for the adventure, so we tried to settle in one place. But, my best work prospects remained in the US tech market, just like a digital nomad. My US clients knew they didn't want the hassle of hiring me outside their normal tax jurisdiction, nor the legal risk of pretending I lived in a US mailbox. All the legal advice we could find led to one frustrating answer. To be totally legal, we had to start a local consulting company and take on some local staff (and local shareholders!) so that our company could sponsor my work permit. This also awarded me the right kind of extended visa and proper re-entry permits for when I needed to travel internationally. Our company then had to engage my US "employer" via subcontract. We effectively had to have local staff on retainer even though I didn't need them to satisfy my US client's needs. We had the accounting and tax headaches of running that company, plus local personal income taxes in our host country. Then, as a US citizen, I still had to file US income taxes and try to get all the exclusions and credits to avoid double taxation. Aside from losing money to pay unnecessary local staff, it was difficult to minimize profits that would distribute to the shareholders for what was just an overly complicated solo consultancy. At the same time, I was well aware that others were flying below the radar. They ritualized "visa runs" to cross borders and reenter on temporary tourist visas. They played games where they told a different story to each jurisdiction about where they were really domiciled. I've often wondered how many of them succeeded in this cheating game for decades since I knew them, or whether they eventually got caught up in some kind of financial disaster.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
tayo42 3y ago
i spent a month in bali after covid, and the ones i talked to were happy to have tourists back. i heard miserable stories from selling everything, going back to farming to survive, personal businesses gone, pets dying because they couldn't take care of them. You cant make generalizations about what people want and don't want. its more complex then that.
- witchesindublin 3y ago
  South East Asia has been against long term tourists for many years now. They want all the "families" and richer tourists who stay for a few days in expensive hotels that hire lots of local workers.
  - bigbillheck 3y ago
    My dad retired to Thailand 20 years ago and until he got too sick to take care of himself had no problems with any of it. (And after he got sick and before he passed, the home we managed to get him placed in helped him get a 'humanitarian exemption' to being deported for visa crimes).
    - witchesindublin 3y ago
      They aren't going to kick out elderly tourists who have been there for years, but it is a new move to encourage wealthier tourists that contribute more to jobs and the wider economy. South East Asia also know that they can't maintain the low cost lifestyle on one hand and help their people become richer on the other hand.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    Well, it's no wonder, all the taxes the nomads pay are not paid to them...
- arp242 3y ago
  I was in Bali during COVID, got there a Oct 2019 and stayed for two years in total. The reasons for this are very much economical: COVID was pretty brutal for a lot of people who make their living off tourism, as you mentioned. For many locals it's very much a love-hate relationship. They love the money it brings in and hate pretty much everything else. As soon as you complain about anything – no matter how justified – there's a very real chance you'll be told to fuck off to your own country. And to be honest I don't blame them either. There really are a whole bunch of right twats in Bali and even I got pretty tired of it quickly. For example the number of white people not wearing a mask in stores etc. was just staggering.

jakub_g 3y ago

Just this week I was reading the average rent in Lisbon those days is more than the local salary.

witchesindublin 3y ago
Airbnb is also another culprit. Most major cities in Europe are suffering from the strong US dollar, Airbnb and digital nomads. Portugal and Spain are usually big draws for tourists and retirees from UK and Northern Europe, so there is some understanding but the situation is ridiculous.

witchesindublin 3y ago

Digital nomads are a major problem in several countries including most of South East Asia and Portugal, and major cities in these regions are having inflated prices due to digital nomads.

varelse 3y ago
[dead]
tayo42 3y ago
every city has this same complaint about prices. at some point maybe we need to finally stop demonizing the bad group of the moment and look what is really causing problems
- witchesindublin 3y ago
  In Europe and much of Asia, there is usually a core area that is very historic and very exclusive/desirable to live in, and of course by virtue it's hard to expand a historic area. These areas have been turned into a mixture of tourist areas and digital nomad areas, usually for Americans due to the strong dollar, and out-priced all the locals to the point that these areas have no life or character. I read complaints from Americans about how these areas are too expensive and have no life and how there are other European/Asian cities which are better, not realising that it is they themselves who are causing the problems.
  - tayo42 3y ago
    i know the complaints and stories, but its never been scientific. just blaming the outside group. but these rising prices are happening all over the world. its americans going over the entire world raising prices? or airbnb is the other culprit always. seems unlikely. its always trust me im local, its the outside group. every city ive lived and looked at lviing in, this same exact complaint about rising prices is happening. even in america too.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    Tourist traps happened organically for locals before the digital nomads came. As did tourism

cowuser666 3y ago

I heard resentment towards remote workers based on their perceived effect on rents when vacationing in Santa Teresa, Costa Rica recently.