10 ms·

‘Tired’, ‘lonely’ and hated by locals: the reality for the digital nomad

68 points by chewz 3y ago

denimnerd42 3y ago
I see stickers placed by locals in these spots basically telling the digital nomads to GTFO. Covid really amped up the hate. It's unfortunate both ways.
- dymk 3y ago
  One person can put up 100 stickers. It's the kind of thing where you go "Huh" and then never notice it again. When I moved to Seattle, I noticed the "Fuk U Techie" stickers, but I pretty quickly tuned out NIMBY screeching.
pyrophane 3y ago
https://archive.is/qfkdT https://archive.is/qfkdT
mikae1 3y ago
https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-firefox-clean https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-firefox-clea...
wing-_-nuts 3y ago
'Hated by locals' is a stretch. I don't think the number of digital nomads is enough to have any meaningful impact on rents or real estate prices in most countries. This is just xenophobia in another form.
- hef19898 3y ago
  A whole of locals, from Lissabon to Bali, actually might disagree. Not to talk about the defacto visa and tax fraud some digital nomads commit. Nothing wrong with going to live and work in a certain place. But do it the proper way: get a work visa if you have to and register for taxes like everyone else. Otherwise your taxes not paid are an unfair advantage compared to locals, it is illegal and basically cheating.
  - vr46 3y ago
    My friend who started having a public affair with a local woman - Indonesia - could have easily gotten himself killed, TBH I’m surprised he’s still alive.
    - colpabar 3y ago
      [flagged]
    - Frummy 3y ago
      Really, why could that have gotten him killed?
    - jalk 3y ago
      Sounds like your friend overstepped local cultural norms which is quite the opposite of "integration"
  - garbagecoder 3y ago
    No, those people are mad about Airbnb and that's not the same thing. I have rented my vacation home for years and maybe once did I have a "digital nomad." And I don't know about Bali, but I pay taxes through the nose on each rental for them and the property taxes and income taxes if I make a profit or not (not in the US). I'm happy to do it, I'm not complaining about paying them but don't tell me I don't. Also these things happen because the locals' governments enabled it. Many countries even have a "digital nomad" visa, but if you allow visa-free entry and all people are doing is using the Internet, then again, that's internal immigration laws. There's no "cheating" at all. It's not like a "digital nomad" in Lisbon got free health care, tuition, or transport and if their landlords aren't paying property tax or income tax, again, that's not really the fault of the tenants. Locals are upset about housing policy and they probably should be. Neighbors are upset about all of their neighborhoods turning into transient AirBnB pitstops with tenants who are rude and loud and they should. But being mad at the people who just clicked online and showed up there is misdirected. It's either landlords who don't enforce rules or governments who don't limit the number of vacation rentals in historical areas. You read these articles and act like everyone is going to look at you with side eye as you walk around. But I just spend a week in Lisbon and it was great and everyone was friendly. Probably the AirBnB model needs to be banned in many places and only bona fide rentals of full places should be allowed, but it depends on the place. If you're in an entire development in a tourist area, everyone's a tourist. Places like downtown Lisbon or Barcelona and other places people are upset should probably ban or limit the number allowed. But anyway, no one is particularly mad at "digital nomads" this is a clickbait article. t. knower
- jakub_g 3y ago
  Just this week I was reading the average rent in Lisbon those days is more than the local salary.
  - witchesindublin 3y ago
    Airbnb is also another culprit. Most major cities in Europe are suffering from the strong US dollar, Airbnb and digital nomads. Portugal and Spain are usually big draws for tourists and retirees from UK and Northern Europe, so there is some understanding but the situation is ridiculous.
- witchesindublin 3y ago
  Digital nomads are a major problem in several countries including most of South East Asia and Portugal, and major cities in these regions are having inflated prices due to digital nomads.
  - varelse 3y ago
    [dead]
  - tayo42 3y ago
    every city has this same complaint about prices. at some point maybe we need to finally stop demonizing the bad group of the moment and look what is really causing problems
    - witchesindublin 3y ago
      In Europe and much of Asia, there is usually a core area that is very historic and very exclusive/desirable to live in, and of course by virtue it's hard to expand a historic area. These areas have been turned into a mixture of tourist areas and digital nomad areas, usually for Americans due to the strong dollar, and out-priced all the locals to the point that these areas have no life or character. I read complaints from Americans about how these areas are too expensive and have no life and how there are other European/Asian cities which are better, not realising that it is they themselves who are causing the problems.
      - tayo42 3y ago
        i know the complaints and stories, but its never been scientific. just blaming the outside group. but these rising prices are happening all over the world. its americans going over the entire world raising prices? or airbnb is the other culprit always. seems unlikely. its always trust me im local, its the outside group. every city ive lived and looked at lviing in, this same exact complaint about rising prices is happening. even in america too.
      - ilyt 3y ago
        Tourist traps happened organically for locals before the digital nomads came. As did tourism
- cowuser666 3y ago
  I heard resentment towards remote workers based on their perceived effect on rents when vacationing in Santa Teresa, Costa Rica recently.
briga 3y ago
Are remote workers who don’t choose a digital nomad lifestyle somehow immune from being tired, lonely and hated by locals? As far as I can tell all of these issues are just as real for the average tech worker working in a big hub. The difference is being a digital nomad offers way more flexibility on how you live your life and the variety of culture you get to experience.
- witchesindublin 3y ago
  I think one of the key differences is how you socialise varies from country to country, but just that a lot of the internet is dominated by Americans and people assume that "they are unfriendly" or "they are friendly". The truth is that most of these "friendly" countries are just engaging in a form of small talk and politeness, similar to going from London (unfriendly) to Ireland (friendly), and that you are not actually making what normal people would consider friends. There are some who do genuinely travel a lot and make friends, but these people usually have global links from childhood or something else that forces them to travel overseas.
- swader999 3y ago
  I work remotely in a rural ranching area. Since almost day one we've been fully integrated. The key is our kids. We all do the same sports and kids activities together. We even go to branding parties and help out a lot. It was a real commitment moving down here we didn't just decide to live in an area, we joined a community. I could see how things would be very different if we didn't do that.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    This is it; if the ONLY interactions you have with others are negative, they will view you negatively. So if you hide in your house all day and only emerge to complain about the neighbor's dog or something, you're going to be disliked. All you have to do to counteract much of that is just say hi now and then, talk a little bit. Kids help tremendously here, because they have absolutely zero filters and feel it's entirely appropriate to run up to random strangers and yell "I POOPED".
  - 3y ago
ninefathom 3y ago
While much of this is true- and I speak from some personal experience, here- the article also takes an unnecessarily critical tone, as if these challenges somehow invalidate the ideas behind the digital nomad lifestyle. There's no rule that the nomad life has to be permanent, and I don't know of anybody who went into it thinking that it would be permanent (myself included). It's very useful as a breath of fresh air, a respite, and a chance to shake up one's life in positive, meaningful ways. In many ways, it's useful to think of the nomad life like a multi-year vacation, and oh by the way, when you do decide to "go home," you have many more options for defining where and what "home" is than you might have considered possible before. I think some folks who have _only_ ever lived a settled life might be a bit blind to those nuances.
witchesindublin 3y ago
For Indians I doubt that there is a major difference really in how they are treated as IT workers or as digital nomads. "I work in the IT industry" "That is such a normal thing!"
varelse 3y ago
[dead]
manuelabeledo 3y ago
This looks like non news to me. People don't "hate" digital nomads (and the article itself does not even back up this claim from the headline). In fact, most people do not even notice them most of the time, as they don't make up for a significant percentage of the population anywhere. There will be always small and very vocal groups, complaining about effectively irrelevant things like this. That is not newsworthy. > But they add: “While the constant state of motion was exciting in the beginning, it eventually became tiresome – literally.” Well, yeah? Constantly moving and traveling around the world tend to have this effect on people.
- NotYourLawyer 3y ago
  I don’t hate them, but they tend to be pretty cringey.
- witchesindublin 3y ago
  There are problems with tensions between locals and digital nomads in several places, especially Portugal, but also in a lot of major cities where they are having a similar effect to Airbnb. A big issue is the strength of the US dollar simply makes it impossible for anyone else to compete and attracts so many Americans.
  - manuelabeledo 3y ago
    > There are problems with tensions between locals and digital nomads in several places, especially Portugal I have never heard of this before, and I have a few portuguese friends. Also, in the context of Lisbon, I doubt that 16,000 salaried workers [0] could influence the market to that extent in a city of 500,000 people, especially given that digital nomads make, on average, $120,000 [1]. It seems to me that digital nomads are the new scapegoats for people who don't like to point their finger inwards. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20221227111848/https://nomadlist.com/people/lisbon https://web.archive.org/web/20221227111848/https://nomadlist... [1] https://www.twoticketsanywhere.com/digital-nomad-statistics/ https://www.twoticketsanywhere.com/digital-nomad-statistics/
    - 3y ago
stcroixx 3y ago
Yeah, no part of that lifestyle would be appealing to me. Travel has diminishing returns for me personally and I'm definitely at the point where it's more of a chore than something I look forward to, unless it's to ski.
- ghaff 3y ago
  I like traveling but I've never done it for more than a month at a time and, with some brief exceptions (mostly when I've been doing "enough" work for a few days not to take vacation when I've been mixing things up with business travel), I've mostly never traveled somewhere on my own where I'm trying to both work full-time and fully enjoy the location I'm traveling too for pleasure.
lemax 3y ago
I like to think that you are either consuming culture or contributing to it – if all you are there to do is consume, you may be better off in a place less foreign. I've found that taking the time to integrate with the people, learning the local language and overall just trying really hard to fit in with the rhythm around me has melded quite a different experience for myself. I have tried hopping around the world, doing a month at a time here or there and I've had mixed results - in Lisbon I felt like just another one in a pack of people taking the charm out of a small city that has a lot of resent toward digital nomads and the like, from younger folks to old. In Vienna and around Switzerland less so, as english didn't make me stick out like a sore thumb and there is much less of an influx in those places. On the other hand, during my last trip I stayed about 4 months in Buenos Aires, taking language courses with a teacher, working a bit less, and making lasting friendships with several people. Argentina felt very welcoming, but I think my efforts helped tremendously. If all you have time for is work, good luck in an Iberian or Latin city – these are slow places that do not have sympathy for people who revolve their lives around work as a city like New York or Zurich may. As culture becomes more global, cities that are glossed over with the amenities digital nomads demand will all look one and the same. You can go to a city center in nearly any part of the world and get a pretty latte and an avocado toast, or go to a cute cowork. But why travel at that point?
- witchesindublin 3y ago
  You touch on a major reason where a lot of American digital nomads fail, and that is that it takes A LOT to integrate into a foreign culture. Europeans tend to have a lot more contact with diverse cultures and are more likely to understand that they will suffer from not being about the integrate fully into a foreign culture, but I think that Americans assume that they will be fine wherever they go. Asia in particular is a place where lots of Americans go and end up failing, but it can also apply to Europe and Latin America to an extent.
  - balls187 3y ago
    You're painting with very broad strokes. I would say perhaps Europeans as a whole have much more experience living in a foreign country than Americans do. But as an American with significant travel experience globally, I have yet to visit a country that is as culturally diverse as America.
sdfghswe 3y ago
People complaining that being a nomad is lonely. Really? What an unexpected turn of events.
BSEdlMMldESB 3y ago
the digital nomads will eventually drive me out of this part of town, onto a shittier part, same as I will drive out some other less wealthy sucker even farther out of the nice parts onto even shittier parts. such is life. so this is why I am glad the dollar reign is coming to an end; I may still get fucked (too late for me) but I'll be glad to watch the mechanism by which I got fucked fall and crumble
- greenhearth 3y ago
  You're talking about gentrification. This is not caused by nomads, but by transplants. I think nomads are different because they work from the road and get off on patronizing "exotic" cultures to reenforce their own privilege, a privatized form of imperialism.
EliRivers 3y ago
Ah, the Daily Telegraph. In recent years, it has become more and more like a broadsheet version of the Daily Mail. They are on a long-term anti-WFH push; this is part of that narrative. To be fair, at times their defence coverage is still surprisingly solid, though.
fallingfrog 3y ago
It feels like this kind of lifestyle would combine all the stress and homesickness of being a touring musician, but without the adoring fans and parties.
- ilyt 3y ago
  It sounds like something fun to do for few month and come back.
karaterobot 3y ago
I know three different people who sold their homes, moved into sailboats, and set out to be waterborne digital nomads, sailing around the world and doing freelance work to support themselves. I know one guy who did the same thing, but with #vanlife. In all these cases, without exception, they regretted it within a year. My advice is, before you liquidate your assets, quit your job, upend your life... give it a dry run. Try it for a month or two first. See if you still like it. If you don't, call it a long vacation and re-evaluate.
- wccrawford 3y ago
  I think that most people can't give it a dry run without that liquidation, though. Having a normal job gets in the way of that lifestyle and is virtually guaranteed to sour the experience. Obvious not all of them like it, but I think even fewer would like it if they don't commit to it outright. It's definitely not for me. I need a lot more stability than that.
  - karaterobot 3y ago
    > I think that most people can't give it a dry run without that liquidation, though. Having a normal job gets in the way of that lifestyle and is virtually guaranteed to sour the experience. I was thinking you'd probably take your standard 3-5 weeks of yearly PTO, plus however much unpaid time off you could get your company to agree to. That would make for a good month, month-and-a-half, or possibly two months test. And, I think if at all possible you should try to work while traveling, either your current job or some freelance work, because that would be part of the actual experience you're testing. > It's definitely not for me. I need a lot more stability than that. Same here. I like sleeping in my bed and making pizza, and taking showers any time I want. Also, as a designer, it's kind of a non-starter for me, since I can't seem to get by without a gigantic monitor.
    - wccrawford 3y ago
      I don't know about other places, but I can't take even 2 weeks off at a time without getting special approval. There's no way I could take my entire year's PTO at once. And they won't allow any unpaid time.
beerpls 3y ago
Unlike others, i’m going to say I get it. I had a stranger recently come up to me and ask to come to an event I was inviting others to. No problem! Come along But the thing is the dude was very shy and awkward. Which isn’t a problem, but definitely cast a bit of a cloud over our social event All of a sudden I was managing him, taking time and focus out of my night to make him feel welcome. I’m sure he didn’t intend it, but he didn’t make it seem as though he were ungrateful There are so many little social cues to make social work. And if you’re not even remotely part of the group, you’re probably going to clash Which is all well and good - it’s let of meeting people… but this guy was just blowing through town. All the investment for what? So he could be 1,000 miles away next week? (he said he would be) The problem with nomads or even superficial travelers is you are taking from the environment you travel to but rarely give much back. And as the trend grows this back and forth becomes tiring fast So basically if you’re going to travel or be a nomad - be a badass people want to be around. Commit to it and be ready when you get there to shine a personality. If you can’t do it in an environment and culture you’re familiar with - respect the people you travel to by working on yourself first. Don’t expect other people to be the prop up to make your life interesting
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- em-bee 3y ago
  what kind of event was that? tech or something else? Which is all well and good - it’s let of meeting people… but this guy was just blowing through town. All the investment for what? So he could be 1,000 miles away next week? (he said he would be) that made me think of this song: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heute_hier,_morgen_dort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heute_hier,_morgen_dort be a badass people want to be around i am probably just like most average introverts, but i don't have problems at tech events, it really depends though. today i was at a meetup of people building brick models (LEGO and alternatives), a hobby i share on the sides. it was way more difficult for me to join that group because i don't have the experience and background as most others, and if it wasn't for people i had already known online, i probably would have acted like your friend there. on tech events on the other hand i can contribute with my experience, all you need to do is to get me to start talking. likewise any community that is curious about visitors, like my religious community which is always welcoming stories from other countries, which meant i was welcome everywhere i went. other groups are those where it is possible to integrate without a long history. irish folk sessions. show up with an instrument and play. instant integration. dungeons and dragons. i found a group that would run weekly one-off's. while multiple sessions followed an overall storyline, each session was designed so that it didn't matter who and how many players joined. the DM was ready for anything, the only rule was that all players were at level 5 and had the same number of points to create their characters, so they were all of similar strength. instant integration. board game meetups were even more open. every week i'd see different people. again, easy to integrate. it does help to have a variety of interests. irish folk sessions were sparse outside of western countries (only in big cities with lots of expats), board games and dnd too. tech events are a lot easier.
ipnon 3y ago
For what it’s worth America is one of the easiest if not the easiest place to be an immigrant, all things considered. You’ll find a community of your fellow countrymen already thriving, you have well established rights that are maintained by the rule of law, and so long as you try to fit in and work hard nobody will pay much mind. Many if not most digital nomads are Americans traveling from an open minded heterogeneous society to a more conservative and homogeneous one. No matter what you call it you’re leaving a society that is relatively pro immigration behind for a society that is very likely less inviting of foreigners! I hope the recent wave of digital nomads makes the world a more open and inviting place but there will be growing pains. America has been the land of immigrants for centuries now and we still have blowback. Imagine going to some rural village or regional capital, making 10x more than all the locals while sitting at a hotel on your laptop, and expecting them to roll out the red carpet! Be respectful, be optimistic, and welcome to the life of an immigrant.
- witchesindublin 3y ago
  You represent what the problem with Americans tend to be. You assume that your culture and philosophy is the best, and then start to hate how all the locals hate you and blame it on their culture. Southern Europe and much of Asia has had inter-ethnic/inter-racial immigration for thousands of years and have developed their own ways of how ethnic groups live side by side and integrate/merge together.
  - pxc 3y ago
    Where can I read about this, about other sorts modes of integration?
    - witchesindublin 3y ago
      Read up on the history of immigration to Europe, Africa and Asia. You act as if the US is the only place where immigration has ever happened.
      - 3y ago
rr808 3y ago
One of the problems of digital nomads that come to my town is that they're introverted quiet people that would rather be on HN or reddit than be part of the community. Actually they'll never be part of the community as by definition they'll be off in a few months.
- witchesindublin 3y ago
  Reading some of the comments here, I think too many people (notably quite a few Americans) don't quite understand how severe cultural and philosophical differences between countries and cultures can be. It can very even between two people of the same race but different countries (say British Indian and Indian American). People in a certain country can have completely different ideas about what racism offends them compared to the same racial minority in another country.
  - ilyt 3y ago
    >People in a certain country can have completely different ideas about what racism offends them compared to the same racial minority in another country. So can different people in same country...
    - witchesindublin 3y ago
      True. But you can also generalise that people in a certain country react differently to people in another country for the purpose of identity politics. A politician calling a person or party "racist" only makes sense if a meaningful number of people of that ethnicity believe it to be racist.
kwar13 3y ago
I absolutely disagree. I have been travelling for almost 2 years and feel more at home on the road than I ever did back "home". Here's some reflections in case it is of interest. https://kaveh.page/lessons_solo_traveling/ https://kaveh.page/lessons_solo_traveling/ In particular, #6 and 14.
greenhearth 3y ago
They might be "tired" because they are "lonely," as isolation atrophies the part of the brain that deals with social interactions and causes mental illnesses, such as depression, which contributes to malfunctions of bodily energy management.
southwesterly 3y ago
This is from the Telegraph which looks down on folks like Digital Nomads. So take the article with a pinch of salt.
neonate 3y ago
http://web.archive.org/web/20230601182301/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/tired-lonely-the-reality-for-those-sold-digital-nomad-dream/ http://web.archive.org/web/20230601182301/https://www.telegr...
sharts 3y ago
[flagged]
yashg 3y ago
>>Americans make up more than half of this drifting population ... the second biggest cohort come from the UK >>Americans Mindi and Daryl Hirsch...the pair eventually put down roots in Lisbon UK and UK, two of the strongest passports in the world. It becomes really easy to be a digital nomad when you can simply board a plane and land in most of the world and walk in because you have a powerful passport. Must be so good to not have to prepare for a visa 3 months in advance and submit a whole bunch of documents to have the privilege of visiting most countries.

68 points by chewz 3y ago

I see stickers placed by locals in these spots basically telling the digital nomads to GTFO. Covid really amped up the hate. It's unfortunate both ways.

dymk 3y ago
One person can put up 100 stickers. It's the kind of thing where you go "Huh" and then never notice it again. When I moved to Seattle, I noticed the "Fuk U Techie" stickers, but I pretty quickly tuned out NIMBY screeching.

pyrophane 3y ago

https://archive.is/qfkdT https://archive.is/qfkdT

mikae1 3y ago

https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-firefox-clean https://gitlab.com/magnolia1234/bypass-paywalls-firefox-clea...

wing-_-nuts 3y ago

'Hated by locals' is a stretch. I don't think the number of digital nomads is enough to have any meaningful impact on rents or real estate prices in most countries. This is just xenophobia in another form.

hef19898 3y ago
A whole of locals, from Lissabon to Bali, actually might disagree. Not to talk about the defacto visa and tax fraud some digital nomads commit. Nothing wrong with going to live and work in a certain place. But do it the proper way: get a work visa if you have to and register for taxes like everyone else. Otherwise your taxes not paid are an unfair advantage compared to locals, it is illegal and basically cheating.
- vr46 3y ago
  My friend who started having a public affair with a local woman - Indonesia - could have easily gotten himself killed, TBH I’m surprised he’s still alive.
  - colpabar 3y ago
    [flagged]
  - Frummy 3y ago
    Really, why could that have gotten him killed?
  - jalk 3y ago
    Sounds like your friend overstepped local cultural norms which is quite the opposite of "integration"
- garbagecoder 3y ago
  No, those people are mad about Airbnb and that's not the same thing. I have rented my vacation home for years and maybe once did I have a "digital nomad." And I don't know about Bali, but I pay taxes through the nose on each rental for them and the property taxes and income taxes if I make a profit or not (not in the US). I'm happy to do it, I'm not complaining about paying them but don't tell me I don't. Also these things happen because the locals' governments enabled it. Many countries even have a "digital nomad" visa, but if you allow visa-free entry and all people are doing is using the Internet, then again, that's internal immigration laws. There's no "cheating" at all. It's not like a "digital nomad" in Lisbon got free health care, tuition, or transport and if their landlords aren't paying property tax or income tax, again, that's not really the fault of the tenants. Locals are upset about housing policy and they probably should be. Neighbors are upset about all of their neighborhoods turning into transient AirBnB pitstops with tenants who are rude and loud and they should. But being mad at the people who just clicked online and showed up there is misdirected. It's either landlords who don't enforce rules or governments who don't limit the number of vacation rentals in historical areas. You read these articles and act like everyone is going to look at you with side eye as you walk around. But I just spend a week in Lisbon and it was great and everyone was friendly. Probably the AirBnB model needs to be banned in many places and only bona fide rentals of full places should be allowed, but it depends on the place. If you're in an entire development in a tourist area, everyone's a tourist. Places like downtown Lisbon or Barcelona and other places people are upset should probably ban or limit the number allowed. But anyway, no one is particularly mad at "digital nomads" this is a clickbait article. t. knower
jakub_g 3y ago
Just this week I was reading the average rent in Lisbon those days is more than the local salary.
- witchesindublin 3y ago
  Airbnb is also another culprit. Most major cities in Europe are suffering from the strong US dollar, Airbnb and digital nomads. Portugal and Spain are usually big draws for tourists and retirees from UK and Northern Europe, so there is some understanding but the situation is ridiculous.
witchesindublin 3y ago
Digital nomads are a major problem in several countries including most of South East Asia and Portugal, and major cities in these regions are having inflated prices due to digital nomads.
- varelse 3y ago
  [dead]
- tayo42 3y ago
  every city has this same complaint about prices. at some point maybe we need to finally stop demonizing the bad group of the moment and look what is really causing problems
  - witchesindublin 3y ago
    In Europe and much of Asia, there is usually a core area that is very historic and very exclusive/desirable to live in, and of course by virtue it's hard to expand a historic area. These areas have been turned into a mixture of tourist areas and digital nomad areas, usually for Americans due to the strong dollar, and out-priced all the locals to the point that these areas have no life or character. I read complaints from Americans about how these areas are too expensive and have no life and how there are other European/Asian cities which are better, not realising that it is they themselves who are causing the problems.
    - tayo42 3y ago
      i know the complaints and stories, but its never been scientific. just blaming the outside group. but these rising prices are happening all over the world. its americans going over the entire world raising prices? or airbnb is the other culprit always. seems unlikely. its always trust me im local, its the outside group. every city ive lived and looked at lviing in, this same exact complaint about rising prices is happening. even in america too.
    - ilyt 3y ago
      Tourist traps happened organically for locals before the digital nomads came. As did tourism
cowuser666 3y ago
I heard resentment towards remote workers based on their perceived effect on rents when vacationing in Santa Teresa, Costa Rica recently.

briga 3y ago

Are remote workers who don’t choose a digital nomad lifestyle somehow immune from being tired, lonely and hated by locals? As far as I can tell all of these issues are just as real for the average tech worker working in a big hub. The difference is being a digital nomad offers way more flexibility on how you live your life and the variety of culture you get to experience.

witchesindublin 3y ago
I think one of the key differences is how you socialise varies from country to country, but just that a lot of the internet is dominated by Americans and people assume that "they are unfriendly" or "they are friendly". The truth is that most of these "friendly" countries are just engaging in a form of small talk and politeness, similar to going from London (unfriendly) to Ireland (friendly), and that you are not actually making what normal people would consider friends. There are some who do genuinely travel a lot and make friends, but these people usually have global links from childhood or something else that forces them to travel overseas.
swader999 3y ago
I work remotely in a rural ranching area. Since almost day one we've been fully integrated. The key is our kids. We all do the same sports and kids activities together. We even go to branding parties and help out a lot. It was a real commitment moving down here we didn't just decide to live in an area, we joined a community. I could see how things would be very different if we didn't do that.
- bombcar 3y ago
  This is it; if the ONLY interactions you have with others are negative, they will view you negatively. So if you hide in your house all day and only emerge to complain about the neighbor's dog or something, you're going to be disliked. All you have to do to counteract much of that is just say hi now and then, talk a little bit. Kids help tremendously here, because they have absolutely zero filters and feel it's entirely appropriate to run up to random strangers and yell "I POOPED".
- 3y ago

ninefathom 3y ago

While much of this is true- and I speak from some personal experience, here- the article also takes an unnecessarily critical tone, as if these challenges somehow invalidate the ideas behind the digital nomad lifestyle. There's no rule that the nomad life has to be permanent, and I don't know of anybody who went into it thinking that it would be permanent (myself included). It's very useful as a breath of fresh air, a respite, and a chance to shake up one's life in positive, meaningful ways. In many ways, it's useful to think of the nomad life like a multi-year vacation, and oh by the way, when you do decide to "go home," you have many more options for defining where and what "home" is than you might have considered possible before. I think some folks who have _only_ ever lived a settled life might be a bit blind to those nuances.

witchesindublin 3y ago

For Indians I doubt that there is a major difference really in how they are treated as IT workers or as digital nomads. "I work in the IT industry" "That is such a normal thing!"

varelse 3y ago

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manuelabeledo 3y ago

This looks like non news to me. People don't "hate" digital nomads (and the article itself does not even back up this claim from the headline). In fact, most people do not even notice them most of the time, as they don't make up for a significant percentage of the population anywhere. There will be always small and very vocal groups, complaining about effectively irrelevant things like this. That is not newsworthy. > But they add: “While the constant state of motion was exciting in the beginning, it eventually became tiresome – literally.” Well, yeah? Constantly moving and traveling around the world tend to have this effect on people.

NotYourLawyer 3y ago
I don’t hate them, but they tend to be pretty cringey.
witchesindublin 3y ago
There are problems with tensions between locals and digital nomads in several places, especially Portugal, but also in a lot of major cities where they are having a similar effect to Airbnb. A big issue is the strength of the US dollar simply makes it impossible for anyone else to compete and attracts so many Americans.
- manuelabeledo 3y ago
  > There are problems with tensions between locals and digital nomads in several places, especially Portugal I have never heard of this before, and I have a few portuguese friends. Also, in the context of Lisbon, I doubt that 16,000 salaried workers [0] could influence the market to that extent in a city of 500,000 people, especially given that digital nomads make, on average, $120,000 [1]. It seems to me that digital nomads are the new scapegoats for people who don't like to point their finger inwards. [0] https://web.archive.org/web/20221227111848/https://nomadlist.com/people/lisbon https://web.archive.org/web/20221227111848/https://nomadlist... [1] https://www.twoticketsanywhere.com/digital-nomad-statistics/ https://www.twoticketsanywhere.com/digital-nomad-statistics/
  - 3y ago

stcroixx 3y ago

Yeah, no part of that lifestyle would be appealing to me. Travel has diminishing returns for me personally and I'm definitely at the point where it's more of a chore than something I look forward to, unless it's to ski.

ghaff 3y ago
I like traveling but I've never done it for more than a month at a time and, with some brief exceptions (mostly when I've been doing "enough" work for a few days not to take vacation when I've been mixing things up with business travel), I've mostly never traveled somewhere on my own where I'm trying to both work full-time and fully enjoy the location I'm traveling too for pleasure.

lemax 3y ago

I like to think that you are either consuming culture or contributing to it – if all you are there to do is consume, you may be better off in a place less foreign. I've found that taking the time to integrate with the people, learning the local language and overall just trying really hard to fit in with the rhythm around me has melded quite a different experience for myself. I have tried hopping around the world, doing a month at a time here or there and I've had mixed results - in Lisbon I felt like just another one in a pack of people taking the charm out of a small city that has a lot of resent toward digital nomads and the like, from younger folks to old. In Vienna and around Switzerland less so, as english didn't make me stick out like a sore thumb and there is much less of an influx in those places. On the other hand, during my last trip I stayed about 4 months in Buenos Aires, taking language courses with a teacher, working a bit less, and making lasting friendships with several people. Argentina felt very welcoming, but I think my efforts helped tremendously. If all you have time for is work, good luck in an Iberian or Latin city – these are slow places that do not have sympathy for people who revolve their lives around work as a city like New York or Zurich may. As culture becomes more global, cities that are glossed over with the amenities digital nomads demand will all look one and the same. You can go to a city center in nearly any part of the world and get a pretty latte and an avocado toast, or go to a cute cowork. But why travel at that point?

witchesindublin 3y ago
You touch on a major reason where a lot of American digital nomads fail, and that is that it takes A LOT to integrate into a foreign culture. Europeans tend to have a lot more contact with diverse cultures and are more likely to understand that they will suffer from not being about the integrate fully into a foreign culture, but I think that Americans assume that they will be fine wherever they go. Asia in particular is a place where lots of Americans go and end up failing, but it can also apply to Europe and Latin America to an extent.
- balls187 3y ago
  You're painting with very broad strokes. I would say perhaps Europeans as a whole have much more experience living in a foreign country than Americans do. But as an American with significant travel experience globally, I have yet to visit a country that is as culturally diverse as America.

sdfghswe 3y ago

People complaining that being a nomad is lonely. Really? What an unexpected turn of events.

BSEdlMMldESB 3y ago

the digital nomads will eventually drive me out of this part of town, onto a shittier part, same as I will drive out some other less wealthy sucker even farther out of the nice parts onto even shittier parts. such is life. so this is why I am glad the dollar reign is coming to an end; I may still get fucked (too late for me) but I'll be glad to watch the mechanism by which I got fucked fall and crumble

greenhearth 3y ago
You're talking about gentrification. This is not caused by nomads, but by transplants. I think nomads are different because they work from the road and get off on patronizing "exotic" cultures to reenforce their own privilege, a privatized form of imperialism.

EliRivers 3y ago

Ah, the Daily Telegraph. In recent years, it has become more and more like a broadsheet version of the Daily Mail. They are on a long-term anti-WFH push; this is part of that narrative. To be fair, at times their defence coverage is still surprisingly solid, though.

fallingfrog 3y ago

It feels like this kind of lifestyle would combine all the stress and homesickness of being a touring musician, but without the adoring fans and parties.

ilyt 3y ago
It sounds like something fun to do for few month and come back.

karaterobot 3y ago

I know three different people who sold their homes, moved into sailboats, and set out to be waterborne digital nomads, sailing around the world and doing freelance work to support themselves. I know one guy who did the same thing, but with #vanlife. In all these cases, without exception, they regretted it within a year. My advice is, before you liquidate your assets, quit your job, upend your life... give it a dry run. Try it for a month or two first. See if you still like it. If you don't, call it a long vacation and re-evaluate.

wccrawford 3y ago
I think that most people can't give it a dry run without that liquidation, though. Having a normal job gets in the way of that lifestyle and is virtually guaranteed to sour the experience. Obvious not all of them like it, but I think even fewer would like it if they don't commit to it outright. It's definitely not for me. I need a lot more stability than that.
- karaterobot 3y ago
  > I think that most people can't give it a dry run without that liquidation, though. Having a normal job gets in the way of that lifestyle and is virtually guaranteed to sour the experience. I was thinking you'd probably take your standard 3-5 weeks of yearly PTO, plus however much unpaid time off you could get your company to agree to. That would make for a good month, month-and-a-half, or possibly two months test. And, I think if at all possible you should try to work while traveling, either your current job or some freelance work, because that would be part of the actual experience you're testing. > It's definitely not for me. I need a lot more stability than that. Same here. I like sleeping in my bed and making pizza, and taking showers any time I want. Also, as a designer, it's kind of a non-starter for me, since I can't seem to get by without a gigantic monitor.
  - wccrawford 3y ago
    I don't know about other places, but I can't take even 2 weeks off at a time without getting special approval. There's no way I could take my entire year's PTO at once. And they won't allow any unpaid time.

beerpls 3y ago

Unlike others, i’m going to say I get it. I had a stranger recently come up to me and ask to come to an event I was inviting others to. No problem! Come along But the thing is the dude was very shy and awkward. Which isn’t a problem, but definitely cast a bit of a cloud over our social event All of a sudden I was managing him, taking time and focus out of my night to make him feel welcome. I’m sure he didn’t intend it, but he didn’t make it seem as though he were ungrateful There are so many little social cues to make social work. And if you’re not even remotely part of the group, you’re probably going to clash Which is all well and good - it’s let of meeting people… but this guy was just blowing through town. All the investment for what? So he could be 1,000 miles away next week? (he said he would be) The problem with nomads or even superficial travelers is you are taking from the environment you travel to but rarely give much back. And as the trend grows this back and forth becomes tiring fast So basically if you’re going to travel or be a nomad - be a badass people want to be around. Commit to it and be ready when you get there to shine a personality. If you can’t do it in an environment and culture you’re familiar with - respect the people you travel to by working on yourself first. Don’t expect other people to be the prop up to make your life interesting

deleted 3y ago
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em-bee 3y ago
what kind of event was that? tech or something else? Which is all well and good - it’s let of meeting people… but this guy was just blowing through town. All the investment for what? So he could be 1,000 miles away next week? (he said he would be) that made me think of this song: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heute_hier,_morgen_dort https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heute_hier,_morgen_dort be a badass people want to be around i am probably just like most average introverts, but i don't have problems at tech events, it really depends though. today i was at a meetup of people building brick models (LEGO and alternatives), a hobby i share on the sides. it was way more difficult for me to join that group because i don't have the experience and background as most others, and if it wasn't for people i had already known online, i probably would have acted like your friend there. on tech events on the other hand i can contribute with my experience, all you need to do is to get me to start talking. likewise any community that is curious about visitors, like my religious community which is always welcoming stories from other countries, which meant i was welcome everywhere i went. other groups are those where it is possible to integrate without a long history. irish folk sessions. show up with an instrument and play. instant integration. dungeons and dragons. i found a group that would run weekly one-off's. while multiple sessions followed an overall storyline, each session was designed so that it didn't matter who and how many players joined. the DM was ready for anything, the only rule was that all players were at level 5 and had the same number of points to create their characters, so they were all of similar strength. instant integration. board game meetups were even more open. every week i'd see different people. again, easy to integrate. it does help to have a variety of interests. irish folk sessions were sparse outside of western countries (only in big cities with lots of expats), board games and dnd too. tech events are a lot easier.

ipnon 3y ago

For what it’s worth America is one of the easiest if not the easiest place to be an immigrant, all things considered. You’ll find a community of your fellow countrymen already thriving, you have well established rights that are maintained by the rule of law, and so long as you try to fit in and work hard nobody will pay much mind. Many if not most digital nomads are Americans traveling from an open minded heterogeneous society to a more conservative and homogeneous one. No matter what you call it you’re leaving a society that is relatively pro immigration behind for a society that is very likely less inviting of foreigners! I hope the recent wave of digital nomads makes the world a more open and inviting place but there will be growing pains. America has been the land of immigrants for centuries now and we still have blowback. Imagine going to some rural village or regional capital, making 10x more than all the locals while sitting at a hotel on your laptop, and expecting them to roll out the red carpet! Be respectful, be optimistic, and welcome to the life of an immigrant.

witchesindublin 3y ago
You represent what the problem with Americans tend to be. You assume that your culture and philosophy is the best, and then start to hate how all the locals hate you and blame it on their culture. Southern Europe and much of Asia has had inter-ethnic/inter-racial immigration for thousands of years and have developed their own ways of how ethnic groups live side by side and integrate/merge together.
- pxc 3y ago
  Where can I read about this, about other sorts modes of integration?
  - witchesindublin 3y ago
    Read up on the history of immigration to Europe, Africa and Asia. You act as if the US is the only place where immigration has ever happened.
    - 3y ago

rr808 3y ago

One of the problems of digital nomads that come to my town is that they're introverted quiet people that would rather be on HN or reddit than be part of the community. Actually they'll never be part of the community as by definition they'll be off in a few months.

witchesindublin 3y ago
Reading some of the comments here, I think too many people (notably quite a few Americans) don't quite understand how severe cultural and philosophical differences between countries and cultures can be. It can very even between two people of the same race but different countries (say British Indian and Indian American). People in a certain country can have completely different ideas about what racism offends them compared to the same racial minority in another country.
- ilyt 3y ago
  >People in a certain country can have completely different ideas about what racism offends them compared to the same racial minority in another country. So can different people in same country...
  - witchesindublin 3y ago
    True. But you can also generalise that people in a certain country react differently to people in another country for the purpose of identity politics. A politician calling a person or party "racist" only makes sense if a meaningful number of people of that ethnicity believe it to be racist.

kwar13 3y ago

I absolutely disagree. I have been travelling for almost 2 years and feel more at home on the road than I ever did back "home". Here's some reflections in case it is of interest. https://kaveh.page/lessons_solo_traveling/ https://kaveh.page/lessons_solo_traveling/ In particular, #6 and 14.

greenhearth 3y ago

They might be "tired" because they are "lonely," as isolation atrophies the part of the brain that deals with social interactions and causes mental illnesses, such as depression, which contributes to malfunctions of bodily energy management.

southwesterly 3y ago

This is from the Telegraph which looks down on folks like Digital Nomads. So take the article with a pinch of salt.

neonate 3y ago

http://web.archive.org/web/20230601182301/https://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/destinations/tired-lonely-the-reality-for-those-sold-digital-nomad-dream/ http://web.archive.org/web/20230601182301/https://www.telegr...

sharts 3y ago

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yashg 3y ago

>>Americans make up more than half of this drifting population ... the second biggest cohort come from the UK >>Americans Mindi and Daryl Hirsch...the pair eventually put down roots in Lisbon UK and UK, two of the strongest passports in the world. It becomes really easy to be a digital nomad when you can simply board a plane and land in most of the world and walk in because you have a powerful passport. Must be so good to not have to prepare for a visa 3 months in advance and submit a whole bunch of documents to have the privilege of visiting most countries.