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I think there has been a terrible loss that is rarely acknowledged in that men in the western world can no longer have intimate friendships without having to de

I think there has been a terrible loss that is rarely acknowledged in that men in the western world can no longer have intimate friendships without having to defend their sexual orientation. Seinfeld's "Not that there's anything wrong with that" became a catchphrase for a reason but the line of thinking still exists. I watched the "Tollywood" film RRR and it was startling and refreshing how much affection the two main male characters showed for each other. I don't know how Indian audiences reacted to it, but I guarantee that a lot of American viewers thought "so they're supposed to be gay, right?" The idea that male affection is merely a cover for closeted sexual attraction is pervasive in US culture. It is one of my longstanding pain points, as my favorite authors ( Conan Doyle, Tolkien, Wodehouse ) show unabashedly close relationships between male characters and all my life I've heard insistences that the characters are actually gay and the authors were too repressed/cowardly to say so. It's tragic and I wish it was talked about more. Men are under so much pressure to bottle up their feelings, and I think the negative side-effects of that are around us.

makeitdouble 3y ago
Doesn't it go the same way when you had to defend male/female relationships as "just friends" and people would blanket deny that such thing could even exist in this world ? I think the cat's out of the bag, and as a society we'll have to make peace with people mislabeling relationships and keep in mind that it's always complicated.
- nineplay 3y ago
  It depends on how successfully people are "making peace". In the US, I think a lot of bad things are happening because a lot of men can't meet the expectations that they think society has put on them. They are afraid to seem feminine or gay because they're afraid of the reaction around them, and maybe justifiably afraid considering the laws being enacted where they live.
mjh2539 3y ago
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterosexuality https://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterose... <<There are practical reasons to be wary of heterosexuality as well. Because our post-Freudian world associates all physical attraction and interpersonal affection with genital erotic desire, intimate same-sex friendship and a chaste appreciation for the beauty of one’s own sex have become all but impossible to achieve. (Freud, by the way, was one of the most influential architects of the vicious orientation-essentialist myth.) For “heterosexuals” in particular, getting close to a friend of the same sex ends up seeming perverse, and being moved by his or her beauty feels queer. To avoid being mistaken for gay, these days many self-proclaimed straight people—men especially—settle for superficial associations with their comrades and reserve the sort of costly intimacy that once characterized such chaste same-sex relationships for their romantic partners alone. Their ostensibly normal sexual orientation cheats them out of an essential aspect of human flourishing: deep friendship.>>
pierat 3y ago
When I was working at Starbucks ages ago, my best friend would come on by regularly. We're both tall men. Coworkers thought I was gay, and had a sexual relationship with him, because it was and still is a strong bond. In actuality, Im bisexual, and we weren't in a sexual relationship. But men aren't "allowed" to have close bonds with other men. There are exceptions: military, police, mens social clubs (masons, shriners, etc). Outside of those, society thinks you're just gay. As for me, I don't particularly care what "society" thinks. I'm not going to trade my agency for some vapid "society groupthink". Did I let my coworkers think I'm gay and dating my best friend? Sure did. And it had a cool other effect - women coworkers treated me more like one of 'them', and was much less defensive than around the other men who worked there.
- nineplay 3y ago
  Disclaimer: I do not live in a red state or a red city. My impression is that in red states or red cities you would not have had a the same level of acceptance. Maybe I read too much sensational media, but the situation seems to be getting worse and worse for men who don't care what society thinks.
  - pierat 3y ago
    To be fair, I was working at the Starbucks in a red state, in a red city. However I would also agree that overall decorum has definitely deteriorated. It used to be someone who disapproved would either grit their teeth or just leave. Now, I've seen shouting matches over that sort of stuff. I guess it could always have been that bad, just not for "normies". And now with less decorum, those normally quiet harassment is now blatant and in your face. I don't think it's just your perception of social media.
red_admiral 3y ago
I am very much pro-gay in general, but I do wish the community would stop retconning every example they can find into 'actually gay'. I don't mind their headcanons or fan fictions, but there is a layer of meaning you can get from Holmes/Watson if you read it as an intense but non-sexual relationship, of the kind that A. Conan Doyle and his readers would have recognised. Same for Frodo/Sam, also Tolkien was very religious, so I doubt he intended any sexual subtext.
standardUser 3y ago
The phenomenon you describe has gone down two different paths for two different sets of people. In my world, most straight men I bother to associate with are not afraid of showing emotion or admitting to non-masculine traits/experiences or being called gay. I assumed, hopefully, that this was the path the entire country was going down, in terms of male-male relationships. But it seems that has not been the case, and a different segment - one that I don't interact with much - has doubled-down on defining themselves with traditional masculinity and continue to suffer through the whole universe of insecurities that comes with.
- zerbinxx 3y ago
  Oddly, a lot of “traditional masculinity” actually involves close male friendships. I think the husband/wife as best friends thing is a relatively new development, and the “neo-heteronormativity” of being a “wife guy” or “ride or die girl” is relatively new - see boomer humor that revolves around multiple types of relationship/friendship, wherein a night out with the boys/girls is sacrosanct and the desire to wall off your partners social life to “only people I also want to hang out with” is seen as controlling or gross.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

makeitdouble 3y ago

Doesn't it go the same way when you had to defend male/female relationships as "just friends" and people would blanket deny that such thing could even exist in this world ? I think the cat's out of the bag, and as a society we'll have to make peace with people mislabeling relationships and keep in mind that it's always complicated.

nineplay 3y ago
It depends on how successfully people are "making peace". In the US, I think a lot of bad things are happening because a lot of men can't meet the expectations that they think society has put on them. They are afraid to seem feminine or gay because they're afraid of the reaction around them, and maybe justifiably afraid considering the laws being enacted where they live.

mjh2539 3y ago

https://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterosexuality https://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterose... <<There are practical reasons to be wary of heterosexuality as well. Because our post-Freudian world associates all physical attraction and interpersonal affection with genital erotic desire, intimate same-sex friendship and a chaste appreciation for the beauty of one’s own sex have become all but impossible to achieve. (Freud, by the way, was one of the most influential architects of the vicious orientation-essentialist myth.) For “heterosexuals” in particular, getting close to a friend of the same sex ends up seeming perverse, and being moved by his or her beauty feels queer. To avoid being mistaken for gay, these days many self-proclaimed straight people—men especially—settle for superficial associations with their comrades and reserve the sort of costly intimacy that once characterized such chaste same-sex relationships for their romantic partners alone. Their ostensibly normal sexual orientation cheats them out of an essential aspect of human flourishing: deep friendship.>>

pierat 3y ago

When I was working at Starbucks ages ago, my best friend would come on by regularly. We're both tall men. Coworkers thought I was gay, and had a sexual relationship with him, because it was and still is a strong bond. In actuality, Im bisexual, and we weren't in a sexual relationship. But men aren't "allowed" to have close bonds with other men. There are exceptions: military, police, mens social clubs (masons, shriners, etc). Outside of those, society thinks you're just gay. As for me, I don't particularly care what "society" thinks. I'm not going to trade my agency for some vapid "society groupthink". Did I let my coworkers think I'm gay and dating my best friend? Sure did. And it had a cool other effect - women coworkers treated me more like one of 'them', and was much less defensive than around the other men who worked there.

nineplay 3y ago
Disclaimer: I do not live in a red state or a red city. My impression is that in red states or red cities you would not have had a the same level of acceptance. Maybe I read too much sensational media, but the situation seems to be getting worse and worse for men who don't care what society thinks.
- pierat 3y ago
  To be fair, I was working at the Starbucks in a red state, in a red city. However I would also agree that overall decorum has definitely deteriorated. It used to be someone who disapproved would either grit their teeth or just leave. Now, I've seen shouting matches over that sort of stuff. I guess it could always have been that bad, just not for "normies". And now with less decorum, those normally quiet harassment is now blatant and in your face. I don't think it's just your perception of social media.

red_admiral 3y ago

I am very much pro-gay in general, but I do wish the community would stop retconning every example they can find into 'actually gay'. I don't mind their headcanons or fan fictions, but there is a layer of meaning you can get from Holmes/Watson if you read it as an intense but non-sexual relationship, of the kind that A. Conan Doyle and his readers would have recognised. Same for Frodo/Sam, also Tolkien was very religious, so I doubt he intended any sexual subtext.

standardUser 3y ago

The phenomenon you describe has gone down two different paths for two different sets of people. In my world, most straight men I bother to associate with are not afraid of showing emotion or admitting to non-masculine traits/experiences or being called gay. I assumed, hopefully, that this was the path the entire country was going down, in terms of male-male relationships. But it seems that has not been the case, and a different segment - one that I don't interact with much - has doubled-down on defining themselves with traditional masculinity and continue to suffer through the whole universe of insecurities that comes with.

zerbinxx 3y ago
Oddly, a lot of “traditional masculinity” actually involves close male friendships. I think the husband/wife as best friends thing is a relatively new development, and the “neo-heteronormativity” of being a “wife guy” or “ride or die girl” is relatively new - see boomer humor that revolves around multiple types of relationship/friendship, wherein a night out with the boys/girls is sacrosanct and the desire to wall off your partners social life to “only people I also want to hang out with” is seen as controlling or gross.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]