4 ms·

How is it bizarre? It seems the same category as saying friendship is failing, which also is a reasonable claim; see the entire bowling alone thesis. I'd proba

How is it bizarre? It seems the same category as saying friendship is failing, which also is a reasonable claim; see the entire bowling alone thesis. I'd probably group them all under the umbrella of social connections failing, which I'd consider one of the biggest issues of US society today.

Dalewyn 3y ago
>social connections failing I have to wonder if people, and newer generations in particular, just fucking suck at socializing. Humanity has very literally never had it easier to communicate and socialize, and yet somehow the vast majority consider themselves isolated.
- nightowl_games 3y ago
  Communicate? Yes. Socialize? No. It's easier to socialize when you are physically beside someone. There are less kids playing in the street. They are no arcades. As a parent you must bring your child to other children. You must encourage or mandate extracurricular activities. We are not a society where children are naturally surrounded by other children in their 0-4 years. We are not a society where adults are naturally surrounded by similiar adults outside of the in office work space. Its a matter of proximity and what is the default state.
  - artificialLimbs 3y ago
    >> We are not a society where children are naturally surrounded by other children in their 0-4 years. That's shocking to hear. We live out in the sticks, about 25 minutes from the nearest town (of ~10k people) and we make sure our kids get some social time a couple of times every week. From homeschool coop groups to random meet ups/activities planned by parents via Facebook to farmer's markets, library/museum trips, churches, parks, visiting neighbors... seems like my kids are always doing something which seems to help them socialize. I think it would be sad if they just stayed home all the time. I suppose being in a traditional marriage where I work and the wife raises the kids helps contribute to this being able to happen.
    - vel0city 3y ago
      > From homeschool coop groups to random meet ups/activities planned by parents via Facebook to farmer's markets, library/museum trips, churches, parks, visiting neighbors All of these other than visiting neighbors are exactly the things nightowl means when saying they're not naturally surrounded. You're having to arrange the homeschool co-op, you're arranging playdates on Facebook, you're taking them to the famers markets and museum trips. You're facilitating them going to these places, probably by way of car. Comparatively, growing up most of my childhood days other than school and one weekly extracurricular most of my time was just naturally playing with the kids in the neighborhood. We'd all just play in each other's yards, we would just go to the playground ourselves, etc. These days you would have CPS called.
- scarmig 3y ago
  The question then becomes why; it's not some random fluctuation where every single person happened to fall on the left side of the spectrum of socialization. Have to look at systemic issues for that.
- nathan_compton 3y ago
  "people just suck at socializing" is no explanation at all. It is just an observation of a state of affairs. In fact, I don't think people are any worse at socializing than we have been in the past. What has changed is that our entire social lives are mediated by parasitic technologies meant to maximize engagement and our entire economic lives are mediated by a market ideology which only incentivizes maximum flexibility in order to meet our economic needs. Social phenomena do not materialize out of thin air, nor are the cause of evil wizards plotting somewhere. It is, as the saying goes, the economy, stupid.
XorNot 3y ago
It's bizarre because it's distinctly not happening. The number of married couples in the US has been trending up since the 1960s [1] and only very recently has shown a plateau. Which is to say their doesn't seem to be any indication that "marriage is failing" i.e. there are less people in marriages. It's also notable that the rate of cohabitation has tripled over the last 20 years[2] (included because it's a worthwhile proxy for things which are long term relationships but might not be recognized as marriages). Where I can point to fertility rates across the Western world falling to below replacement and say "yeah we've got a problem", the notable thing is that it seems thoroughly uncorrelated with people being in long term relationships. People might not have time for friends, but there are more committed relationships around then at any time in history - by the numbers. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/183663/number-of-married-couples-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183663/number-of-married... [2] https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/09/unmarried-partners-more-diverse-than-20-years-ago.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/09/unmarried-par...
- pokepim 3y ago
  [dead]
- shubb 3y ago
  Just want to point out that with population growth, your stats show that over the past 20 years married couples per thousand population has gone from 202/1000 in 2001 to 185/1000 in 2022 which is a 10% decline.
  - XorNot 3y ago
    Noticed that which is why I looked up the cohabitation data, since I'm not sure how "marriage" is being defined - over that same period cohabitation rates tripled. I suspect that accounts for a decent chunk of people not getting married, but still being in long-term relationships unless there's some evidence these are substantially different types of relationships (i.e. not intimate).
  - scarmig 3y ago
    > married couples per thousand population has gone from 202/1000 in 2001 to 185/1000 in 2022 which is a 10% decline. This probably understates things, if anything; as you get older, you're more likely to get married, and America's population has been aging.

Dalewyn 3y ago

>social connections failing I have to wonder if people, and newer generations in particular, just fucking suck at socializing. Humanity has very literally never had it easier to communicate and socialize, and yet somehow the vast majority consider themselves isolated.

nightowl_games 3y ago
Communicate? Yes. Socialize? No. It's easier to socialize when you are physically beside someone. There are less kids playing in the street. They are no arcades. As a parent you must bring your child to other children. You must encourage or mandate extracurricular activities. We are not a society where children are naturally surrounded by other children in their 0-4 years. We are not a society where adults are naturally surrounded by similiar adults outside of the in office work space. Its a matter of proximity and what is the default state.
- artificialLimbs 3y ago
  >> We are not a society where children are naturally surrounded by other children in their 0-4 years. That's shocking to hear. We live out in the sticks, about 25 minutes from the nearest town (of ~10k people) and we make sure our kids get some social time a couple of times every week. From homeschool coop groups to random meet ups/activities planned by parents via Facebook to farmer's markets, library/museum trips, churches, parks, visiting neighbors... seems like my kids are always doing something which seems to help them socialize. I think it would be sad if they just stayed home all the time. I suppose being in a traditional marriage where I work and the wife raises the kids helps contribute to this being able to happen.
  - vel0city 3y ago
    > From homeschool coop groups to random meet ups/activities planned by parents via Facebook to farmer's markets, library/museum trips, churches, parks, visiting neighbors All of these other than visiting neighbors are exactly the things nightowl means when saying they're not naturally surrounded. You're having to arrange the homeschool co-op, you're arranging playdates on Facebook, you're taking them to the famers markets and museum trips. You're facilitating them going to these places, probably by way of car. Comparatively, growing up most of my childhood days other than school and one weekly extracurricular most of my time was just naturally playing with the kids in the neighborhood. We'd all just play in each other's yards, we would just go to the playground ourselves, etc. These days you would have CPS called.
scarmig 3y ago
The question then becomes why; it's not some random fluctuation where every single person happened to fall on the left side of the spectrum of socialization. Have to look at systemic issues for that.
nathan_compton 3y ago
"people just suck at socializing" is no explanation at all. It is just an observation of a state of affairs. In fact, I don't think people are any worse at socializing than we have been in the past. What has changed is that our entire social lives are mediated by parasitic technologies meant to maximize engagement and our entire economic lives are mediated by a market ideology which only incentivizes maximum flexibility in order to meet our economic needs. Social phenomena do not materialize out of thin air, nor are the cause of evil wizards plotting somewhere. It is, as the saying goes, the economy, stupid.

XorNot 3y ago

It's bizarre because it's distinctly not happening. The number of married couples in the US has been trending up since the 1960s [1] and only very recently has shown a plateau. Which is to say their doesn't seem to be any indication that "marriage is failing" i.e. there are less people in marriages. It's also notable that the rate of cohabitation has tripled over the last 20 years[2] (included because it's a worthwhile proxy for things which are long term relationships but might not be recognized as marriages). Where I can point to fertility rates across the Western world falling to below replacement and say "yeah we've got a problem", the notable thing is that it seems thoroughly uncorrelated with people being in long term relationships. People might not have time for friends, but there are more committed relationships around then at any time in history - by the numbers. [1] https://www.statista.com/statistics/183663/number-of-married-couples-in-the-us/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/183663/number-of-married... [2] https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/09/unmarried-partners-more-diverse-than-20-years-ago.html https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2019/09/unmarried-par...

pokepim 3y ago
[dead]
shubb 3y ago
Just want to point out that with population growth, your stats show that over the past 20 years married couples per thousand population has gone from 202/1000 in 2001 to 185/1000 in 2022 which is a 10% decline.
- XorNot 3y ago
  Noticed that which is why I looked up the cohabitation data, since I'm not sure how "marriage" is being defined - over that same period cohabitation rates tripled. I suspect that accounts for a decent chunk of people not getting married, but still being in long-term relationships unless there's some evidence these are substantially different types of relationships (i.e. not intimate).
- scarmig 3y ago
  > married couples per thousand population has gone from 202/1000 in 2001 to 185/1000 in 2022 which is a 10% decline. This probably understates things, if anything; as you get older, you're more likely to get married, and America's population has been aging.