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As June rolled around today, I was just reflecting on the history of sexuality, and the philosophical shift that has occurred relatively recently, from "lifesty

As June rolled around today, I was just reflecting on the history of sexuality, and the philosophical shift that has occurred relatively recently, from "lifestyle" to "orientation" to "identity" and all that comes with it. People in the past did not consider themselves to have sexual orientations, to be gay or straight or something else. Even someone who was committed to a same-sex romantic relationship wouldn't have, or want, the terminology to describe and identify themselves in those terms. It was... behavior. Passions. So it's not difficult to see that this lack of labeling and identity would also be a lack of barriers to intimacy and romantic talk without necessitating or implying sexual behavior. If a bro is too proud to sit next to me on a bus bench today because he needs his personal space, perhaps he's afraid of being labeled or branded as something he doesn't like. I like the fact that the subjects of this article have gone beyond "best friends" terminology and come up with some neat new terms. "Boot-camp besties"! Yeah!

asah 3y ago
Also: "work spouse" https://www.google.com/search?q=work+spouse https://www.google.com/search?q=work+spouse
- NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
  Immortalized in King of Queens S1E20!
- hef19898 3y ago
  I had a bunch of those! Finding one is a necessity, if you ask me.
nkjnlknlk 3y ago
It's interesting that you put the people with those "behaviors" or "passions" as the agents who have switched to "identity". In reality, it's the oppressors who "identified" them.
- kgwxd 3y ago
  That is such an excellent summary of a concept I've only recently started to realize and it seems so obvious in hindsight. I'm pretty sure it's never going to get through to the people that would need to hear it in order for the world to change though.
- pjc50 3y ago
  Indeed. There's a huge gap between an identity that you apply to yourself and an identity that is wielded against you. The labels used to be "normal" vs "illegal", and you can still see weaponized labels being chucked around ("groomer" and "paedo" especially). It's the gap between being forced to wear a pink star as a prelude to being taken to a concentration camp vs in a freer society choosing to wear one.
ausbah 3y ago
I think this is an interesting hypothesis considering that many non-heterosexual sexual orientations have only been given concrete labels in the past ~100-150 years, and non-cis gender identities in the last ~50-100 years despite them all existing in some form throughout history. >Even someone who was committed to a same-sex romantic relationship wouldn't have, or want, the terminology to describe and identify themselves in those terms. I think where I would differ in your reasoning this isn't just that people don't identify or want to be labeled as something, it's they don't want to be caught in the negative stigmas and social outcastings around these identities that have sprung up in the last ~100-150 years
nineplay 3y ago
I think there has been a terrible loss that is rarely acknowledged in that men in the western world can no longer have intimate friendships without having to defend their sexual orientation. Seinfeld's "Not that there's anything wrong with that" became a catchphrase for a reason but the line of thinking still exists. I watched the "Tollywood" film RRR and it was startling and refreshing how much affection the two main male characters showed for each other. I don't know how Indian audiences reacted to it, but I guarantee that a lot of American viewers thought "so they're supposed to be gay, right?" The idea that male affection is merely a cover for closeted sexual attraction is pervasive in US culture. It is one of my longstanding pain points, as my favorite authors ( Conan Doyle, Tolkien, Wodehouse ) show unabashedly close relationships between male characters and all my life I've heard insistences that the characters are actually gay and the authors were too repressed/cowardly to say so. It's tragic and I wish it was talked about more. Men are under so much pressure to bottle up their feelings, and I think the negative side-effects of that are around us.
- makeitdouble 3y ago
  Doesn't it go the same way when you had to defend male/female relationships as "just friends" and people would blanket deny that such thing could even exist in this world ? I think the cat's out of the bag, and as a society we'll have to make peace with people mislabeling relationships and keep in mind that it's always complicated.
  - nineplay 3y ago
    It depends on how successfully people are "making peace". In the US, I think a lot of bad things are happening because a lot of men can't meet the expectations that they think society has put on them. They are afraid to seem feminine or gay because they're afraid of the reaction around them, and maybe justifiably afraid considering the laws being enacted where they live.
- mjh2539 3y ago
  https://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterosexuality https://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterose... <<There are practical reasons to be wary of heterosexuality as well. Because our post-Freudian world associates all physical attraction and interpersonal affection with genital erotic desire, intimate same-sex friendship and a chaste appreciation for the beauty of one’s own sex have become all but impossible to achieve. (Freud, by the way, was one of the most influential architects of the vicious orientation-essentialist myth.) For “heterosexuals” in particular, getting close to a friend of the same sex ends up seeming perverse, and being moved by his or her beauty feels queer. To avoid being mistaken for gay, these days many self-proclaimed straight people—men especially—settle for superficial associations with their comrades and reserve the sort of costly intimacy that once characterized such chaste same-sex relationships for their romantic partners alone. Their ostensibly normal sexual orientation cheats them out of an essential aspect of human flourishing: deep friendship.>>

asah 3y ago

Also: "work spouse" https://www.google.com/search?q=work+spouse https://www.google.com/search?q=work+spouse

NoZebra120vClip 3y ago
Immortalized in King of Queens S1E20!
hef19898 3y ago
I had a bunch of those! Finding one is a necessity, if you ask me.

nkjnlknlk 3y ago

It's interesting that you put the people with those "behaviors" or "passions" as the agents who have switched to "identity". In reality, it's the oppressors who "identified" them.

kgwxd 3y ago
That is such an excellent summary of a concept I've only recently started to realize and it seems so obvious in hindsight. I'm pretty sure it's never going to get through to the people that would need to hear it in order for the world to change though.
pjc50 3y ago
Indeed. There's a huge gap between an identity that you apply to yourself and an identity that is wielded against you. The labels used to be "normal" vs "illegal", and you can still see weaponized labels being chucked around ("groomer" and "paedo" especially). It's the gap between being forced to wear a pink star as a prelude to being taken to a concentration camp vs in a freer society choosing to wear one.

ausbah 3y ago

I think this is an interesting hypothesis considering that many non-heterosexual sexual orientations have only been given concrete labels in the past ~100-150 years, and non-cis gender identities in the last ~50-100 years despite them all existing in some form throughout history. >Even someone who was committed to a same-sex romantic relationship wouldn't have, or want, the terminology to describe and identify themselves in those terms. I think where I would differ in your reasoning this isn't just that people don't identify or want to be labeled as something, it's they don't want to be caught in the negative stigmas and social outcastings around these identities that have sprung up in the last ~100-150 years

nineplay 3y ago

I think there has been a terrible loss that is rarely acknowledged in that men in the western world can no longer have intimate friendships without having to defend their sexual orientation. Seinfeld's "Not that there's anything wrong with that" became a catchphrase for a reason but the line of thinking still exists. I watched the "Tollywood" film RRR and it was startling and refreshing how much affection the two main male characters showed for each other. I don't know how Indian audiences reacted to it, but I guarantee that a lot of American viewers thought "so they're supposed to be gay, right?" The idea that male affection is merely a cover for closeted sexual attraction is pervasive in US culture. It is one of my longstanding pain points, as my favorite authors ( Conan Doyle, Tolkien, Wodehouse ) show unabashedly close relationships between male characters and all my life I've heard insistences that the characters are actually gay and the authors were too repressed/cowardly to say so. It's tragic and I wish it was talked about more. Men are under so much pressure to bottle up their feelings, and I think the negative side-effects of that are around us.

makeitdouble 3y ago
Doesn't it go the same way when you had to defend male/female relationships as "just friends" and people would blanket deny that such thing could even exist in this world ? I think the cat's out of the bag, and as a society we'll have to make peace with people mislabeling relationships and keep in mind that it's always complicated.
- nineplay 3y ago
  It depends on how successfully people are "making peace". In the US, I think a lot of bad things are happening because a lot of men can't meet the expectations that they think society has put on them. They are afraid to seem feminine or gay because they're afraid of the reaction around them, and maybe justifiably afraid considering the laws being enacted where they live.
mjh2539 3y ago
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterosexuality https://www.firstthings.com/article/2014/03/against-heterose... <<There are practical reasons to be wary of heterosexuality as well. Because our post-Freudian world associates all physical attraction and interpersonal affection with genital erotic desire, intimate same-sex friendship and a chaste appreciation for the beauty of one’s own sex have become all but impossible to achieve. (Freud, by the way, was one of the most influential architects of the vicious orientation-essentialist myth.) For “heterosexuals” in particular, getting close to a friend of the same sex ends up seeming perverse, and being moved by his or her beauty feels queer. To avoid being mistaken for gay, these days many self-proclaimed straight people—men especially—settle for superficial associations with their comrades and reserve the sort of costly intimacy that once characterized such chaste same-sex relationships for their romantic partners alone. Their ostensibly normal sexual orientation cheats them out of an essential aspect of human flourishing: deep friendship.>>