3 ms·

You literally didn't read the first paragraph of the linked article, did you?

by nkoren 3y ago

jahnu 3y ago
Isn’t it truly tiresome to see obvious questions voted to the top with answers right in the article or easily searchable. Why do HN commenters assume that they are the only person to think about these questions? It’s probably the most discussed and analysed topic of our time with an incredible wealth of professionals writing about it every day.
- hef19898 3y ago
  The downside of a tendency to apply first principle thinking to everything. My best guess so far.
armada651 3y ago
The article: > Power delivered by the ‘GREGY Interconnection’ cable will serve grids in Greece, Italy and Bulgaria. The comment: > what is going to power Northern Europe in winter? You literally didn't read the first sentence of the comment, did you?
- ceejayoz 3y ago
  The article discusses lengthy power cables going from Morocco to Britain. Extending those to Northern Europe doesn't take that much imagination.
  - ftth_finland 3y ago
    The question is still relevant. You cannot lay a 2000 mile subsea cable from Greece to the Nordics. The Nordic grid is separate from the Central European grid and interconnection capacity is limited. Time to let your imagination fly. What’s your solution?
    - ceejayoz 3y ago
      > You cannot lay a 2000 mile subsea cable from Greece to the Nordics. Sure, that makes it easier, not harder. Interconnection capacity can be expanded. The Nordic grid is already connected (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Northern_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Northern_E... ; 11 interconnections are listed), just not synchronized; they can and do exchange power just fine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid details all sorts of proposals in this regard, some of them currently being implemented. Like I said, not much imagination necessary; others have already gotten it well past that point.
      - ftth_finland 3y ago
        > Sure, that makes it easier, not harder. Tell that to the folks actually building these transmission networks. > Interconnection capacity can be expanded. Sure. Finland is adding an additional 1000 MW of capacity to Estonia. It's expected to be ready for service in 2035. In case you didn't notice, that's less than a nuclear power plants worth of interconnection capacity in a decade. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid details all sorts of proposals in this regard That page is little much than fancy hand waving. What's more amusing is that you can also find the summary of a study from Finnish engineering firm Pöyry on the very same page that concludes the following: "A report by Pöyry stated that a super grid would only partially reduce the problems from intermittent renewable energy production. While it found that spreading renewables across Europe produced a smoothing effect, large scale weather patterns would impact many European countries at similar times. This still results in large highs and lows of energy output." > some of them currently being implemented. Which ones? Specifically which ones will add the required tens of GWs of interconnection capacity? > Like I said, not much imagination necessary; others have already gotten it well past that point. That's putting it charitably. You need a rather large leap of faith from those hallucinations to a real solution.
        ceejayoz 3y ago
        > Tell that to the folks actually building these transmission networks. I suspect they'll agree that overland transmission lines are far easier to build than undersea lines. (As long as you're not trying to do it in, say, Afghanistan.) > While it found that spreading renewables across Europe produced a smoothing effect, large scale weather patterns would impact many European countries at similar times. Yes, that's why building and interconnecting with solar farms in Northern Africa is being discussed. > In case you didn't notice, that's less than a nuclear power plants worth of interconnection capacity in a decade. One would presume they build according to actual need. It's pretty clear future capacity expansion of proven technology will be needed as use of renewables expands.
rich_sasha 3y ago
So, what, we'll draw most of the winter power from Morocco? Aside from engineering feasibility, this is literally what bit Europe (Northern Europe in particular - go figure) in the backside: having a single energy supplier. Projects like this sound like nice marginal improvements, but you wouldn't want to bet your whole economy on good relations with Morocco. It is on fact worse since oil and gas can be transported with some difficulty, Germany muddled through in the end. But you won't be able to magic out new cables at this scale. And anyway where would they lead? I think the bulk of energy must at least be produced in the EU, with all the limitations it entails. Or else be fungible with many third parties.

You literally didn't read the first paragraph of the linked article, did you?

by nkoren 3y ago

You literally didn't read the first paragraph of the linked article, did you?

Isn’t it truly tiresome to see obvious questions voted to the top with answers right in the article or easily searchable. Why do HN commenters assume that they are the only person to think about these questions? It’s probably the most discussed and analysed topic of our time with an incredible wealth of professionals writing about it every day.

hef19898 3y ago
The downside of a tendency to apply first principle thinking to everything. My best guess so far.

armada651 3y ago

The article: > Power delivered by the ‘GREGY Interconnection’ cable will serve grids in Greece, Italy and Bulgaria. The comment: > what is going to power Northern Europe in winter? You literally didn't read the first sentence of the comment, did you?

ceejayoz 3y ago
The article discusses lengthy power cables going from Morocco to Britain. Extending those to Northern Europe doesn't take that much imagination.
- ftth_finland 3y ago
  The question is still relevant. You cannot lay a 2000 mile subsea cable from Greece to the Nordics. The Nordic grid is separate from the Central European grid and interconnection capacity is limited. Time to let your imagination fly. What’s your solution?
  - ceejayoz 3y ago
    > You cannot lay a 2000 mile subsea cable from Greece to the Nordics. Sure, that makes it easier, not harder. Interconnection capacity can be expanded. The Nordic grid is already connected (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Northern_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synchronous_grid_of_Northern_E... ; 11 interconnections are listed), just not synchronized; they can and do exchange power just fine. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid details all sorts of proposals in this regard, some of them currently being implemented. Like I said, not much imagination necessary; others have already gotten it well past that point.
    - ftth_finland 3y ago
      > Sure, that makes it easier, not harder. Tell that to the folks actually building these transmission networks. > Interconnection capacity can be expanded. Sure. Finland is adding an additional 1000 MW of capacity to Estonia. It's expected to be ready for service in 2035. In case you didn't notice, that's less than a nuclear power plants worth of interconnection capacity in a decade. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_super_grid details all sorts of proposals in this regard That page is little much than fancy hand waving. What's more amusing is that you can also find the summary of a study from Finnish engineering firm Pöyry on the very same page that concludes the following: "A report by Pöyry stated that a super grid would only partially reduce the problems from intermittent renewable energy production. While it found that spreading renewables across Europe produced a smoothing effect, large scale weather patterns would impact many European countries at similar times. This still results in large highs and lows of energy output." > some of them currently being implemented. Which ones? Specifically which ones will add the required tens of GWs of interconnection capacity? > Like I said, not much imagination necessary; others have already gotten it well past that point. That's putting it charitably. You need a rather large leap of faith from those hallucinations to a real solution.
      - ceejayoz 3y ago
        > Tell that to the folks actually building these transmission networks. I suspect they'll agree that overland transmission lines are far easier to build than undersea lines. (As long as you're not trying to do it in, say, Afghanistan.) > While it found that spreading renewables across Europe produced a smoothing effect, large scale weather patterns would impact many European countries at similar times. Yes, that's why building and interconnecting with solar farms in Northern Africa is being discussed. > In case you didn't notice, that's less than a nuclear power plants worth of interconnection capacity in a decade. One would presume they build according to actual need. It's pretty clear future capacity expansion of proven technology will be needed as use of renewables expands.

rich_sasha 3y ago

So, what, we'll draw most of the winter power from Morocco? Aside from engineering feasibility, this is literally what bit Europe (Northern Europe in particular - go figure) in the backside: having a single energy supplier. Projects like this sound like nice marginal improvements, but you wouldn't want to bet your whole economy on good relations with Morocco. It is on fact worse since oil and gas can be transported with some difficulty, Germany muddled through in the end. But you won't be able to magic out new cables at this scale. And anyway where would they lead? I think the bulk of energy must at least be produced in the EU, with all the limitations it entails. Or else be fungible with many third parties.