3 ms·

correlation: A technology (lead pipes) was really popular in urban areas later in the empire, when it could be used. And the Roman Empire fell. causation: ???

correlation: A technology (lead pipes) was really popular in urban areas later in the empire, when it could be used. And the Roman Empire fell. causation: ??? But the lead! So what? Show me a causal chain or this is yet another a puff piece from Ars. And an old one at that.

bell-cot 3y ago
By my reading, that is not the causation they're talking about. At all. My read: "Lead plumbing was an extremely expensive luxury in Ancient Rome. Evidence of widespread use of lead plumbing (in sediments in the harbor) rises when economic times where good (so the Romans could afford it), and falls when times were bad (so they couldn't). And we found some other interesting details in our sediment core samples."
krisoft 3y ago
> Show me a causal chain The article itself says that the theory that Rome fell due to lead poisoning is disputed. In fact they say these then recent findings are contradicting the theory. The exact quote you didn't seem to notice: "The city's infatuation with lead pipes led to the popular (and disputed) theory that Rome fell due to lead poisoning. Now, a new study reveals that the city's lead plumbing infrastructure was at its biggest and most complicated during the centuries leading up to the empire's peak." > or this is yet another a puff piece from Ars. There is something particularly odious about complaining about the lack of intellectual rigour while showing none in the same comment.
- thom 3y ago
  If anything, the Romans (e.g. Vitruvius) actually _knew_ lead could be bad but even then decided it was best overall.
  - bboygravity 3y ago
    The city of Chicago almost 2000 years later did the exact same.
    - eigenhombre 3y ago
      Indeed. I live in Chicago. Several years back, mid-winter, we suddenly had a geyser in the middle of our courtyard: burst pipe. Called in experts, and several hours and one coffin-sized hole in our yard later, we had running water again. I asked them for the 10" / 25 cm spliced-out bit of pipe, and still have it -- it is amazingly heavy, and definitely lead.
      - twelve40 3y ago
        but it's surely not rocket science to determine the effects of it, right? it's either so bad that a civilization can die from it, or decidedly not? especially if it's been used in recent times in Chicago, which didnt go extinct like Rome. So I'm not sure why this theory always gets reluctantly dragged along, it's either true or false.
        eigenhombre 3y ago
        The jury is still out on Chicago going extinct :-) though I see your point, and I wonder how serious the problem actually is. TIL: the danger depends on your water chemistry[1], which I expect is monitored in cities like Chicago. [1] https://www.treehugger.com/lead-in-water-pipes-4018249 https://www.treehugger.com/lead-in-water-pipes-4018249

bell-cot 3y ago

By my reading, that is not the causation they're talking about. At all. My read: "Lead plumbing was an extremely expensive luxury in Ancient Rome. Evidence of widespread use of lead plumbing (in sediments in the harbor) rises when economic times where good (so the Romans could afford it), and falls when times were bad (so they couldn't). And we found some other interesting details in our sediment core samples."

krisoft 3y ago

> Show me a causal chain The article itself says that the theory that Rome fell due to lead poisoning is disputed. In fact they say these then recent findings are contradicting the theory. The exact quote you didn't seem to notice: "The city's infatuation with lead pipes led to the popular (and disputed) theory that Rome fell due to lead poisoning. Now, a new study reveals that the city's lead plumbing infrastructure was at its biggest and most complicated during the centuries leading up to the empire's peak." > or this is yet another a puff piece from Ars. There is something particularly odious about complaining about the lack of intellectual rigour while showing none in the same comment.

thom 3y ago
If anything, the Romans (e.g. Vitruvius) actually _knew_ lead could be bad but even then decided it was best overall.
- bboygravity 3y ago
  The city of Chicago almost 2000 years later did the exact same.
  - eigenhombre 3y ago
    Indeed. I live in Chicago. Several years back, mid-winter, we suddenly had a geyser in the middle of our courtyard: burst pipe. Called in experts, and several hours and one coffin-sized hole in our yard later, we had running water again. I asked them for the 10" / 25 cm spliced-out bit of pipe, and still have it -- it is amazingly heavy, and definitely lead.
    - twelve40 3y ago
      but it's surely not rocket science to determine the effects of it, right? it's either so bad that a civilization can die from it, or decidedly not? especially if it's been used in recent times in Chicago, which didnt go extinct like Rome. So I'm not sure why this theory always gets reluctantly dragged along, it's either true or false.
      - eigenhombre 3y ago
        The jury is still out on Chicago going extinct :-) though I see your point, and I wonder how serious the problem actually is. TIL: the danger depends on your water chemistry[1], which I expect is monitored in cities like Chicago. [1] https://www.treehugger.com/lead-in-water-pipes-4018249 https://www.treehugger.com/lead-in-water-pipes-4018249