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Would someone from/in the UK/NZ/AU/etc. be able to say more about the outcomes of these principles, e.g. in the context of public protests? The Wikipedia page i

Would someone from/in the UK/NZ/AU/etc. be able to say more about the outcomes of these principles, e.g. in the context of public protests? The Wikipedia page implies that police activity during protests are fundamentally different than those in other Western countries, but doesn't say what about them makes them different.

marcus_holmes 3y ago
UK/AU here. It used to be different, but the increasing militarisation of police in both the UK and Australia is apparent. The UK police are still unarmed, with armed response units that respond to any situation involving (or potentially involving) guns. Australian police are armed, and there's definitely a shift in attitude from that (though Aussies are generally have a more authoritarian outlook than Brits, so it may just be that). The UK is fast turning into a fascist state [0] and the police there are being given new powers to deal with protests [1]. Australian police are always pleading for more powers, and already have more then they need (imho). I was explaining to an American recently about Peelian Principles, and the idea that the police are just normal citizens who are employed to deal with crime and order blew his mind. I think the Peel attitude still resonates with both UK and Aus citizens, but I'm not so sure it's still the guiding principle of either police force. [0] https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/05/the-twilight-of-freedom/ https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/05/the-twilight... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Act_2023 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Act_2023
- Animats 3y ago
  > I was explaining to an American recently about Peelian Principles, and the idea that the police are just normal citizens who are employed to deal with crime and order blew his mind. Right. The classic legal view of police power is that the only extra authority police have is the authority to arrest on suspicion. Anyone has the authority to arrest if they witness a felony. This worked in the UK until the second half of the 19th century, before handguns were common. A group of citizens could detain a crook. See "Hue and cry". (Handguns didn't work very well until the second half of the 19th century, with the development of all-metal cartridges and revolvers. Handguns before that were single shot, high-maintenance, rather fussy to use, and often misfired. Most criminals used reliable knives or clubs.)
- crimsoneer 3y ago
  Honestly, I think "fast turning into a fascist state" is... a bit strong. Yes, the government is passing laws that reduce the threshold for protest to be stopped, but we still have free elections and stuff.
  - marcus_holmes 3y ago
    I was quoting Craig Murray, kinda. I remember the Poll Tax riots, and how they affected the decision on that policy. Real, substantive, change to the government's thinking based on public protest. That couldn't happen today because of the change in laws - the protests would be stopped before they ever started, and wouldn't turn into riots (in part because police tactics have changed and they no longer try to turn protests into riots). I'm a huge optimist about the future. I believe the world is a better place, on average, than it used to be and getting better every year. But the trend to authoritarianism in the West, together with the increasing wealth gap, is worrying. Historically this produces violent revolutions - the rich get richer, and pass increasingly draconian laws to contain the anger of the rest of society, until the point where it cannot be contained and the rich get slaughtered in a revolution. I find it unbelievable that we're headed there, and yet cannot deny the evidence.
LatteLazy 3y ago
I cannot comment on public protests, I think we fail (for political reasons) to use policing by consent in that area. I was arrested a few years back though so I can answer questions about that. Having an expectation of being treated reasonably meant I could have an honest and up-front discussion with them over what happened including admitting to some possible crimes and they could save both their and my time dealing with nonsense. I was treated well throughout the process and annoying as it was to be detained overnight, I can't complain or blame the officers. I'd be happy to assist them in future. I am a Londoner.
- vidarh 3y ago
  I'm Norwegian, but have lived in London the last 23 years. In Norway, May 1st is more celebration than protest. So imagine my shock walking home my first May 1st in London and encountering the Met kettling protestors with riot units with shields and horses... Norwegian police does not handle demonstrations great either, but I've never seen anything in Norway like the way the Met handles demonstrations unless/until things get violent. At least in London they seem to often presume demonstrations will get nasty ahead of time, but the problem with that is that it's far easier for people to justify e.g. throwing stuff at a police unit in riot gear hiding behind shields and trying to kettle you than regular police units keeping to the sidelines unless/until something happens. Not been arrested, but had a few interactions with police here as a witness or because they had queries, and similar feeling that I wasn't putting myself at risk by being open and honest. Of course, I'm white and live in a relatively middle class area and while that makes less of a difference here than it appears to do in the US, the Met has a pretty poor record in that respect too.
  - crimsoneer 3y ago
    It's worth pointing out policing in the UK deploys horses really rather rarely...they're not part of routine protest policing, and will generally only be deployed where disorder is anticipated. Same thing with helmets and shields: they're both the preserve of specialist trained officers who won't be deployed unless they expect to be needed.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
n4r9 3y ago
I agree with other replies that UK policing of protests is deeply flawed. Especially in Northern Ireland where policing is done completely differently. But apart from NI, there are several ways that UK policing differs from the US: - They basically never use weapons like tear gas or rubber/plastic bullets to control crowds. There is limited use of pepper gas, but generally it's criticised when it happens. - They do not ordinarily carry guns. Some specialist units do, but it's rare. Even heavy duty riot control police will have batons and shields at best. It's easier to feel comfortable about a police force that won't kill someone due to an itchy trigger finger. - Community focus. In the UK the police will engage with local authorities, community leaders, residents etc in a polite and respectful way in order to support the reduction of crime in the area. If you are lost or need any kind of assistance, asking a police officer for help is always going to result in a positive outcome. It's very common to come out of a train station and see a couple of police happily chatting away with some of the locals. This webpage is pretty good for more detail: https://www.open.edu/openlearn/education-development/race-and-ethnicity-hub/differences-and-similarities-policing-the-us-and-the-uk https://www.open.edu/openlearn/education-development/race-an...

marcus_holmes 3y ago

UK/AU here. It used to be different, but the increasing militarisation of police in both the UK and Australia is apparent. The UK police are still unarmed, with armed response units that respond to any situation involving (or potentially involving) guns. Australian police are armed, and there's definitely a shift in attitude from that (though Aussies are generally have a more authoritarian outlook than Brits, so it may just be that). The UK is fast turning into a fascist state [0] and the police there are being given new powers to deal with protests [1]. Australian police are always pleading for more powers, and already have more then they need (imho). I was explaining to an American recently about Peelian Principles, and the idea that the police are just normal citizens who are employed to deal with crime and order blew his mind. I think the Peel attitude still resonates with both UK and Aus citizens, but I'm not so sure it's still the guiding principle of either police force. [0] https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/05/the-twilight-of-freedom/ https://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2023/05/the-twilight... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Act_2023 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_Order_Act_2023

Animats 3y ago
> I was explaining to an American recently about Peelian Principles, and the idea that the police are just normal citizens who are employed to deal with crime and order blew his mind. Right. The classic legal view of police power is that the only extra authority police have is the authority to arrest on suspicion. Anyone has the authority to arrest if they witness a felony. This worked in the UK until the second half of the 19th century, before handguns were common. A group of citizens could detain a crook. See "Hue and cry". (Handguns didn't work very well until the second half of the 19th century, with the development of all-metal cartridges and revolvers. Handguns before that were single shot, high-maintenance, rather fussy to use, and often misfired. Most criminals used reliable knives or clubs.)
crimsoneer 3y ago
Honestly, I think "fast turning into a fascist state" is... a bit strong. Yes, the government is passing laws that reduce the threshold for protest to be stopped, but we still have free elections and stuff.
- marcus_holmes 3y ago
  I was quoting Craig Murray, kinda. I remember the Poll Tax riots, and how they affected the decision on that policy. Real, substantive, change to the government's thinking based on public protest. That couldn't happen today because of the change in laws - the protests would be stopped before they ever started, and wouldn't turn into riots (in part because police tactics have changed and they no longer try to turn protests into riots). I'm a huge optimist about the future. I believe the world is a better place, on average, than it used to be and getting better every year. But the trend to authoritarianism in the West, together with the increasing wealth gap, is worrying. Historically this produces violent revolutions - the rich get richer, and pass increasingly draconian laws to contain the anger of the rest of society, until the point where it cannot be contained and the rich get slaughtered in a revolution. I find it unbelievable that we're headed there, and yet cannot deny the evidence.

LatteLazy 3y ago

I cannot comment on public protests, I think we fail (for political reasons) to use policing by consent in that area. I was arrested a few years back though so I can answer questions about that. Having an expectation of being treated reasonably meant I could have an honest and up-front discussion with them over what happened including admitting to some possible crimes and they could save both their and my time dealing with nonsense. I was treated well throughout the process and annoying as it was to be detained overnight, I can't complain or blame the officers. I'd be happy to assist them in future. I am a Londoner.

vidarh 3y ago
I'm Norwegian, but have lived in London the last 23 years. In Norway, May 1st is more celebration than protest. So imagine my shock walking home my first May 1st in London and encountering the Met kettling protestors with riot units with shields and horses... Norwegian police does not handle demonstrations great either, but I've never seen anything in Norway like the way the Met handles demonstrations unless/until things get violent. At least in London they seem to often presume demonstrations will get nasty ahead of time, but the problem with that is that it's far easier for people to justify e.g. throwing stuff at a police unit in riot gear hiding behind shields and trying to kettle you than regular police units keeping to the sidelines unless/until something happens. Not been arrested, but had a few interactions with police here as a witness or because they had queries, and similar feeling that I wasn't putting myself at risk by being open and honest. Of course, I'm white and live in a relatively middle class area and while that makes less of a difference here than it appears to do in the US, the Met has a pretty poor record in that respect too.
- crimsoneer 3y ago
  It's worth pointing out policing in the UK deploys horses really rather rarely...they're not part of routine protest policing, and will generally only be deployed where disorder is anticipated. Same thing with helmets and shields: they're both the preserve of specialist trained officers who won't be deployed unless they expect to be needed.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

n4r9 3y ago

I agree with other replies that UK policing of protests is deeply flawed. Especially in Northern Ireland where policing is done completely differently. But apart from NI, there are several ways that UK policing differs from the US: - They basically never use weapons like tear gas or rubber/plastic bullets to control crowds. There is limited use of pepper gas, but generally it's criticised when it happens. - They do not ordinarily carry guns. Some specialist units do, but it's rare. Even heavy duty riot control police will have batons and shields at best. It's easier to feel comfortable about a police force that won't kill someone due to an itchy trigger finger. - Community focus. In the UK the police will engage with local authorities, community leaders, residents etc in a polite and respectful way in order to support the reduction of crime in the area. If you are lost or need any kind of assistance, asking a police officer for help is always going to result in a positive outcome. It's very common to come out of a train station and see a couple of police happily chatting away with some of the locals. This webpage is pretty good for more detail: https://www.open.edu/openlearn/education-development/race-and-ethnicity-hub/differences-and-similarities-policing-the-us-and-the-uk https://www.open.edu/openlearn/education-development/race-an...