4 ms·

Which I find bizarre given how backwards Japan is in the adoption of other technologies. Eg their continued reliance on paper records and fax machines.

by Loocid 3y ago

johnwalkr 3y ago
Do you have concrete examples? I recently moved from Japan to Europe after 10 years in Japan and while some things seemed old-fashioned in Japan, things also change overnight there. During Covid most companies changed to digital signing. In Japan I often needed a paper from the city, but it was an easy-to-obtain printout I could get immediately from city hall or even from 7-11. I tend to require the same papers in Europe too, with the extra hassle of needing some from Japan (2-3 months) and some from Europe (2-3 days). Example 1: get ID card at the airport when you emigrate to japan. In Europe it takes 2-3 months. Example 2: getting a local driving license takes 1 day provided your country has a treaty with japan. In Europe it can take several months because you need to request criminal records from your previous countries I have yet to encounter a situation that requires a fax machine in either place.
- Loocid 3y ago
  My personal experience has only been from the tourism side with one concrete example being digital payments outside of PayPay. It's much better post COVID but even on my most recent trip from a couple of months ago if you want pay by card, the vast majority of the time you're signing with pen and paper. Rarely did they offer pin or tap which is common elsewhere. Anecdotally I only know stories from people that I know personally that live there and through the internet. Eg PauloInTokyo does good "day in the life" videos. Off the top of my head I believe the Pachinko episode illustrates a variety of old school manual processes that have stuck around (pen and paper shift logs etc). I've also heard opening even a simple bank account is quite the pain.
  - fomine3 3y ago
    In my experience with Japan local IC/NFC credit card, I've never signed when I use CC in recent 5 years but PIN is sometimes needed. Do you use magnetic stripe CC?
    - Loocid 3y ago
      >Do you use magnetic stripe CC. All my cards have an IC, however they were Australian cards. Perhaps it's an additional step for foreign credit/debit cards?
      - fomine3 3y ago
        I don't know much about CC, but possibly difference of PIN method can be a reason. Possibly like merchant only support offline PIN vs your card only support online PIN?
      - johnwalkr 3y ago
        Must be a quirk for those cards in Japan. I've had no problems using my Canadian cards in Japan, and don't recall ever having to sign. In terms of banking and payments, it has improved a lot over the years: ATMs are mostly 24/7, or at least you can always find one, banks don't shut down over holiday weeks anymore (some do occasionally but it's a one-time thing for big upgrades for interoperability), and you can use credit cards and tap-to-pay almost everywhere. My only complaint is the sheer number of digital payment options. You end up with using at least 1-2 on top of your credit card because it's tied to some other service.
- lmm 3y ago
  > Example 1: get ID card at the airport when you emigrate to japan. In Europe it takes 2-3 months. Yeah now have fun going through the process of renewing a My Number card. Go to city hall (during the hours when it's open), fill in a form, wait 2-3 months to get a notification that your replacement card has been made, then you have to book an appointment during office hours at city hall to pick it up (likely taking another few months). Yes the initial residence card is issued quickly, but at that point you've had to wait 2-3 months to get the CoE for the visa, so they probably made it during that time. > Example 2: getting a local driving license takes 1 day provided your country has a treaty with japan. And involves a whole day of standing around in various queues, again during business hours only. Hardly a picture of efficiency.
  - Prickle 3y ago
    Thankfully the mynumber card is supposed to not be compulsory. (I do have one) What is awful is just the ridiculous number of errors I find when going through the process. My card in theory has the wrong expiration date, (checked in, they said the expiration date on the card is always correct so IDK) but it is 10 years off, when comparedto the ones owned by the rest of my family who got the card in the same year. They also keep absolutely screwing up the data security in relation to the mynumber cards. Just last month there was another data breach. Sources are in Japanese but I can dig them up if you want. But I think it's run the entire gauntlet of every conceivable issue. Data stolen online? Check Wrong insurance information, either inputted wrong or linked to the wrong person? Check Swapped birth certificates? Check Printing service provides sensitive documents for the wrong person? Check I'm just lucky enough to not be the one who got his data stolen... for now.
  - johnwalkr 3y ago
    I agree the my number card is a pain, if they want people to use it they should make it easier to get. When I went to get a plastic my number card, the staff at city hall advised me not to get it because I had a driving license and I'd have to renew the my number card every time my residence status was extended. They recommended it to non-holders of driving licenses to use as ID. But I'm standing by these examples. For my move to Europe, it was 4 months to get the equivalent to the COE, then another 4 months (average is supposed to be 2-3 months) to get the equivalent of a residence card. And the company that sponsors you has to either prove you're highly skilled or prove they tried to hire a European for a set period of time first. And if you're not from a visa-waiver country, you aren't even allowed to travel in Europe while you wait for the ID card. For my driving license, I probably won't have to wait in line, but the total time to process it is at least four months. For starting a sole proprietorship, similar story. A bit annoying paperwork to start one in Japan, but it only took a few hours for everything. Here, it's 3 months and counting, and it's possible that it comes with a condition that I need to rent space for doing consulting (not do it from home) before getting the OK. Japan is bureaucratic but usually fast, at least for individuals.
rtpg 3y ago
Perhaps places are multifaceted and not reducible to 2-bit facts like the usage of fax machines or lack of credit card adoption.
- Loocid 3y ago
  Of course, I just find the the stereotype vs reality of Japan being a high tech wonderland interesting.
Prickle 3y ago
I would not say we are super reliant on paper/fax anymore. But, it is still quite common. I did receive a Fax at the office last week on Thursday. Oh, and some of our stuff uses Dialup, usually in relation to that older infrastructure. Got thrown for a loop this wednesday when ye good old Dialup (acoustic handshake) audio started screeching across the office. Did not realize we still used it at all!
- EleanorKonik 3y ago
  I've sent faxes in America within the last 2 years; they're still a thing here too.
NalNezumi 3y ago
I've heard this FAX meme since like early 2000, but I have yet to encounter one in my 4 years living here, and most Japanese people I joke this too just gets as perplexed by the joke. I wonder, where do people find those FAX machine? Have I lived in a tech/startup bubble in Tokyo and missed it? I didn't even see it at the local Ward office in the suburb. Some stuff are still old-school (hanko etc) but it to me seem like the fax meme have outlived the reality. Last time I heard fax machine was a German exchange student in Tokyo, AFTER she returned to Germany and had to get some paperwork at the ward office, in Germany
- pezezin 3y ago
  Have you seen the big printers at many konbinis? Those are also fax machines. I have only sent two faxes in my life, and both were after I moved to Japan. The first was right after I arrived, I ordered something from Amazon and I realized I had written my address wrong, when I tried to fix it my account to blocked, and to unblock it I had to send a hand-written fax with my name and address. The second time was when I got a letter from the Sapporo police telling me that I had lost my driving license there. Again, to recover it I had to send a hand-written fax explaining the situation, so they could prove my identity. How that is considered a secure procedure is beyond me, but such is Japan.

Which I find bizarre given how backwards Japan is in the adoption of other technologies. Eg their continued reliance on paper records and fax machines.

by Loocid 3y ago

Which I find bizarre given how backwards Japan is in the adoption of other technologies. Eg their continued reliance on paper records and fax machines.

johnwalkr 3y ago

Do you have concrete examples? I recently moved from Japan to Europe after 10 years in Japan and while some things seemed old-fashioned in Japan, things also change overnight there. During Covid most companies changed to digital signing. In Japan I often needed a paper from the city, but it was an easy-to-obtain printout I could get immediately from city hall or even from 7-11. I tend to require the same papers in Europe too, with the extra hassle of needing some from Japan (2-3 months) and some from Europe (2-3 days). Example 1: get ID card at the airport when you emigrate to japan. In Europe it takes 2-3 months. Example 2: getting a local driving license takes 1 day provided your country has a treaty with japan. In Europe it can take several months because you need to request criminal records from your previous countries I have yet to encounter a situation that requires a fax machine in either place.

Loocid 3y ago
My personal experience has only been from the tourism side with one concrete example being digital payments outside of PayPay. It's much better post COVID but even on my most recent trip from a couple of months ago if you want pay by card, the vast majority of the time you're signing with pen and paper. Rarely did they offer pin or tap which is common elsewhere. Anecdotally I only know stories from people that I know personally that live there and through the internet. Eg PauloInTokyo does good "day in the life" videos. Off the top of my head I believe the Pachinko episode illustrates a variety of old school manual processes that have stuck around (pen and paper shift logs etc). I've also heard opening even a simple bank account is quite the pain.
- fomine3 3y ago
  In my experience with Japan local IC/NFC credit card, I've never signed when I use CC in recent 5 years but PIN is sometimes needed. Do you use magnetic stripe CC?
  - Loocid 3y ago
    >Do you use magnetic stripe CC. All my cards have an IC, however they were Australian cards. Perhaps it's an additional step for foreign credit/debit cards?
    - fomine3 3y ago
      I don't know much about CC, but possibly difference of PIN method can be a reason. Possibly like merchant only support offline PIN vs your card only support online PIN?
    - johnwalkr 3y ago
      Must be a quirk for those cards in Japan. I've had no problems using my Canadian cards in Japan, and don't recall ever having to sign. In terms of banking and payments, it has improved a lot over the years: ATMs are mostly 24/7, or at least you can always find one, banks don't shut down over holiday weeks anymore (some do occasionally but it's a one-time thing for big upgrades for interoperability), and you can use credit cards and tap-to-pay almost everywhere. My only complaint is the sheer number of digital payment options. You end up with using at least 1-2 on top of your credit card because it's tied to some other service.
lmm 3y ago
> Example 1: get ID card at the airport when you emigrate to japan. In Europe it takes 2-3 months. Yeah now have fun going through the process of renewing a My Number card. Go to city hall (during the hours when it's open), fill in a form, wait 2-3 months to get a notification that your replacement card has been made, then you have to book an appointment during office hours at city hall to pick it up (likely taking another few months). Yes the initial residence card is issued quickly, but at that point you've had to wait 2-3 months to get the CoE for the visa, so they probably made it during that time. > Example 2: getting a local driving license takes 1 day provided your country has a treaty with japan. And involves a whole day of standing around in various queues, again during business hours only. Hardly a picture of efficiency.
- Prickle 3y ago
  Thankfully the mynumber card is supposed to not be compulsory. (I do have one) What is awful is just the ridiculous number of errors I find when going through the process. My card in theory has the wrong expiration date, (checked in, they said the expiration date on the card is always correct so IDK) but it is 10 years off, when comparedto the ones owned by the rest of my family who got the card in the same year. They also keep absolutely screwing up the data security in relation to the mynumber cards. Just last month there was another data breach. Sources are in Japanese but I can dig them up if you want. But I think it's run the entire gauntlet of every conceivable issue. Data stolen online? Check Wrong insurance information, either inputted wrong or linked to the wrong person? Check Swapped birth certificates? Check Printing service provides sensitive documents for the wrong person? Check I'm just lucky enough to not be the one who got his data stolen... for now.
- johnwalkr 3y ago
  I agree the my number card is a pain, if they want people to use it they should make it easier to get. When I went to get a plastic my number card, the staff at city hall advised me not to get it because I had a driving license and I'd have to renew the my number card every time my residence status was extended. They recommended it to non-holders of driving licenses to use as ID. But I'm standing by these examples. For my move to Europe, it was 4 months to get the equivalent to the COE, then another 4 months (average is supposed to be 2-3 months) to get the equivalent of a residence card. And the company that sponsors you has to either prove you're highly skilled or prove they tried to hire a European for a set period of time first. And if you're not from a visa-waiver country, you aren't even allowed to travel in Europe while you wait for the ID card. For my driving license, I probably won't have to wait in line, but the total time to process it is at least four months. For starting a sole proprietorship, similar story. A bit annoying paperwork to start one in Japan, but it only took a few hours for everything. Here, it's 3 months and counting, and it's possible that it comes with a condition that I need to rent space for doing consulting (not do it from home) before getting the OK. Japan is bureaucratic but usually fast, at least for individuals.

rtpg 3y ago

Perhaps places are multifaceted and not reducible to 2-bit facts like the usage of fax machines or lack of credit card adoption.

Loocid 3y ago
Of course, I just find the the stereotype vs reality of Japan being a high tech wonderland interesting.

Prickle 3y ago

I would not say we are super reliant on paper/fax anymore. But, it is still quite common. I did receive a Fax at the office last week on Thursday. Oh, and some of our stuff uses Dialup, usually in relation to that older infrastructure. Got thrown for a loop this wednesday when ye good old Dialup (acoustic handshake) audio started screeching across the office. Did not realize we still used it at all!

EleanorKonik 3y ago
I've sent faxes in America within the last 2 years; they're still a thing here too.

NalNezumi 3y ago

I've heard this FAX meme since like early 2000, but I have yet to encounter one in my 4 years living here, and most Japanese people I joke this too just gets as perplexed by the joke. I wonder, where do people find those FAX machine? Have I lived in a tech/startup bubble in Tokyo and missed it? I didn't even see it at the local Ward office in the suburb. Some stuff are still old-school (hanko etc) but it to me seem like the fax meme have outlived the reality. Last time I heard fax machine was a German exchange student in Tokyo, AFTER she returned to Germany and had to get some paperwork at the ward office, in Germany

pezezin 3y ago
Have you seen the big printers at many konbinis? Those are also fax machines. I have only sent two faxes in my life, and both were after I moved to Japan. The first was right after I arrived, I ordered something from Amazon and I realized I had written my address wrong, when I tried to fix it my account to blocked, and to unblock it I had to send a hand-written fax with my name and address. The second time was when I got a letter from the Sapporo police telling me that I had lost my driving license there. Again, to recover it I had to send a hand-written fax explaining the situation, so they could prove my identity. How that is considered a secure procedure is beyond me, but such is Japan.