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Point taken. I'll be careful from now on. Nevertheless, how do I talk about true death to a believer in immortal souls? The best path I found so far is somet

Point taken. I'll be careful from now on. Nevertheless, how do I talk about true death to a believer in immortal souls? The best path I found so far is something like "imagine that your soul is actually destroyed when you die". It focuses directly on what I want to talk about: true death, the real deal, not some half-death with an escape hatch. The advantage with this approach is that it emphasises the common ground between monotheists and transhumanists: true death is simply not acceptable. Therefore if it is a problem, and we have any chance of fixing it, then we must take that chance. It also avoids some problems: If I say we don't have (immortal) souls, then he may soon draw conclusions I'm totally not about (worst case, he could think I'm a nihilist). If I avoid the word "soul" altogether, he could think I'm afraid of the afterlife.

gnaritas 15y ago
People who believe in immortal souls don't believe in true death, you can't talk to them about it anymore than you can get them to imagine there's no god; they can't, it's just outside their worldview. These are people that can't be reasoned with because these beliefs aren't based on reason. Adapting their language but meaning different things by the words doesn't help you communicate, it only feels that way, because they're agreeing based on what they think those words mean, not with what you mean by them.
- loup-vaillant 15y ago
  It is one thing to not believe something, and another to not even being able to do counter-factual reasoning. I don't believe in the afterlife, but I can sure imagine it. I've read enough stories about that. Conversely, one could believe in the afterlife, and be able to imagine a world without it at the same time. Or a world where there is an afterlife, but where souls can actually be destroyed, or dissipated into the aether. I can recall at least 2 such stories: the anime Bleach, and The Night's Dawn Trilogy novel. I'm sure there are other examples. Now, I reckon I can't help someone who can't even play the "what if" game.

gnaritas 15y ago

People who believe in immortal souls don't believe in true death, you can't talk to them about it anymore than you can get them to imagine there's no god; they can't, it's just outside their worldview. These are people that can't be reasoned with because these beliefs aren't based on reason. Adapting their language but meaning different things by the words doesn't help you communicate, it only feels that way, because they're agreeing based on what they think those words mean, not with what you mean by them.

loup-vaillant 15y ago
It is one thing to not believe something, and another to not even being able to do counter-factual reasoning. I don't believe in the afterlife, but I can sure imagine it. I've read enough stories about that. Conversely, one could believe in the afterlife, and be able to imagine a world without it at the same time. Or a world where there is an afterlife, but where souls can actually be destroyed, or dissipated into the aether. I can recall at least 2 such stories: the anime Bleach, and The Night's Dawn Trilogy novel. I'm sure there are other examples. Now, I reckon I can't help someone who can't even play the "what if" game.