6 ms·

What's the primary key to identify a German citizien? The full name is certainly not unique. Even combined with birthdate duplicates do probably exist. Some cou

What's the primary key to identify a German citizien? The full name is certainly not unique. Even combined with birthdate duplicates do probably exist. Some countries have something like a social security number. Of course those exist in Germany, too, but using them cross-functionally has long been deemed unconstitutional. So the tax office can use the tax number, but that cannot be shown e.g. in your passport or drivers licence. Analogously with every other identifier. I think some law and order politicians have tried to weaken this up, but I guess it's still not fully allowed. Asking out of real curiousity. I am German citizen, but have not lived there after the first government office got a PC.

dale_glass 3y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_identity_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_identity_card The document number in the upper right corner in the picture, I imagine.
- junga 3y ago
  You must either own an ID card or a passport. This means having an ID card is optional. Does the German passport have a unique identifier as well? (never owned one) The tax number otoh is assigned at birth.
  - flocked 3y ago
    Yes it has a unique ID
    - usr1106 3y ago
      Which changes whenever you get a new passport. Not what we would call a primary key in database design.
      - Symbiote 3y ago
        And a person can have more than one German passport
        usr1106 3y ago
        With a strong motivation yes, just for fun no. One motivation is that you want to travel to Israel and to some Arab country, which do not accept passports with stamps of the "enemy" in it. I don't know if they verify the motivation in any way or whether it's enough to say so.
        h4ckerle 3y ago
        There are (according to the BMI[1] (German interior ministry)) only two reason to have multiple passports: The first being the one you stated and the second being multiple (visa requiring) travels in a short enough timeframe so that your passports would have to be lying at the foreign countries embassies/consulates at the same time. Seems like motivation enforcement is quite strict, as they do state that you can't even get two passports for the "enemy visa" reason when the visits are just planned, but you can't prove it yet (palne tickets etc.) you won't get it, and you'll have to go to the German embassy after you can prove it... [1]https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/faqs/DE/themen/moderne-verwaltung/reisepass/reisepass-faq.html https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/faqs/DE/themen/moderne-ve...
  - lxgr 3y ago
    One of the two tax number systems is, yes :) There’s also another one which changes every time you move across financial administrative districts.
- lxgr 3y ago
  No, that is a document ID and changes with each reissuance. Germany has had a constitutional restriction in place explicitly prohibiting an SSN equivalent. These days, the tax ID can supposedly be used for that purpose, but I haven’t seen much use of that yet.
  - ryanmentor 3y ago
    > Germany has had a constitutional restriction in place explicitly prohibiting an SSN equivalent. Very interesting! Thank you for this
    - usr1106 3y ago
      Unfortunately it's not a clearly written clause. It's derived from the dignity of humans and similar general terms. So the interpretation has changed over the decades. As long as the GDR existed it was clearly considered a property of a totalitarian state. Existed in the GDR (East) but unthinkable in the Federal Republic (West). Maybe 15 years after reunification (don't quote me on the exact number) a permament nationwide tax id was introduced. With the promise that its usage will forever be limited to tax offices and exchange with any other authorities is illegal. Another 15 years later that promise was "forgotten" and now the tax id can be exchanged with many authorities. It's relatively new and probably not widely used yet. But the dams have been opened.
      - Crespyl 3y ago
        That sounds a bit like how SSN use in the US has broadened from its original scope. Any government power, once granted, seems only to ever increase in scope.
      - lxgr 3y ago
        Yes, that's a better explanation of the constitutional status, thank you! (Supreme court decision vs. an explicit clause in the constitution.) FWIW, I think in this age of massive databases that can be effortlessly joined on fuzzy matching criteria, the lack of a unique person identifier is more of a hurdle for legitimate use cases than a safety measure against government or corporate overreach. One good thing about it is the complete lack of the horrible "SSN as both primary key and bearer authentication token" pattern that's commonplace in the US, though – but the alternatives are pretty annoying, in my experience.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
zokier 3y ago
The description implies that it does name matching only: > This online service compares the name read from your ID card, your electronic residence permit or eID card for citizens of the European Union with the name specified in your OpenPGP key. If the names match, your public key is electronically signed by Governikus, confirming the match.
haukem 3y ago
Germany does not use a global unique identifier like the social security number in the US. The Germans do not like such global identifier for people because the the Nazis used them and data protection is very important in Germany.
- r3drock 3y ago
  This is in fact not correct. There are two unique identifiers for every german citizen, first the so called "Rentenversicherungsnummer" and the "Steueridentifikationsnummer". Both are assigned at birth.
  - haukem 3y ago
    Yes that is correct, but they are not much used outside of the service they are intended for.
    - germanier 3y ago
      The Steuer-ID is now intended to be used as a global identifier. The law is already enacted, but there are still some technical questions open. See https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/pressemitteilungen/DE/2021/04/registermodernisierungsgesetz-verkuendet.html https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/pressemitteilungen/DE/202...
      - usr1106 3y ago
        That's "propaganda" by the ministery, not answering many questions. They only claim that all government administration will become digital, smooth, and much cheaper. Is it allowed to use the Steuer-ID for non-government purposes?
        germanier 3y ago
        An enacted law is not "propaganda", it's the law. You can ignore all the fluff around the factual statements if you like. The number is only intended to be used by government entities. The law restricts usage to census and communication with government entities (as well as already established tax-related use).
netsharc 3y ago
I wonder if the city of birth is relevant too for uniqueness. I imagine the collision prevention then falls in the hands of the city administration office. It'd be funny if there's a Hans Müller born on 31 May 2023 in Frankfurt, and another Müller family wants to register a Hans, also born in Frankfurt, also on the same date, they might say "Sorry, that name is taken already". Of course it'd be complicated if e.g. the 2 Hanses were born in a foreign country with no such checks, and moved to Germany later on...
- usr1106 3y ago
  I have never heard that there would be legal basis to refuse registering a name because it's duplicate.
- oezi 3y ago
  It certainly isn't prohibited but does cause issues if Name/DoB/City of Birth coincide. There are a few cases where speeding tickets and arrest warrants end up with the wrong Mr. Müller.

dale_glass 3y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_identity_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_identity_card The document number in the upper right corner in the picture, I imagine.

junga 3y ago
You must either own an ID card or a passport. This means having an ID card is optional. Does the German passport have a unique identifier as well? (never owned one) The tax number otoh is assigned at birth.
- flocked 3y ago
  Yes it has a unique ID
  - usr1106 3y ago
    Which changes whenever you get a new passport. Not what we would call a primary key in database design.
    - Symbiote 3y ago
      And a person can have more than one German passport
      - usr1106 3y ago
        With a strong motivation yes, just for fun no. One motivation is that you want to travel to Israel and to some Arab country, which do not accept passports with stamps of the "enemy" in it. I don't know if they verify the motivation in any way or whether it's enough to say so.
        h4ckerle 3y ago
        There are (according to the BMI[1] (German interior ministry)) only two reason to have multiple passports: The first being the one you stated and the second being multiple (visa requiring) travels in a short enough timeframe so that your passports would have to be lying at the foreign countries embassies/consulates at the same time. Seems like motivation enforcement is quite strict, as they do state that you can't even get two passports for the "enemy visa" reason when the visits are just planned, but you can't prove it yet (palne tickets etc.) you won't get it, and you'll have to go to the German embassy after you can prove it... [1]https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/faqs/DE/themen/moderne-verwaltung/reisepass/reisepass-faq.html https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/faqs/DE/themen/moderne-ve...
- lxgr 3y ago
  One of the two tax number systems is, yes :) There’s also another one which changes every time you move across financial administrative districts.
lxgr 3y ago
No, that is a document ID and changes with each reissuance. Germany has had a constitutional restriction in place explicitly prohibiting an SSN equivalent. These days, the tax ID can supposedly be used for that purpose, but I haven’t seen much use of that yet.
- ryanmentor 3y ago
  > Germany has had a constitutional restriction in place explicitly prohibiting an SSN equivalent. Very interesting! Thank you for this
  - usr1106 3y ago
    Unfortunately it's not a clearly written clause. It's derived from the dignity of humans and similar general terms. So the interpretation has changed over the decades. As long as the GDR existed it was clearly considered a property of a totalitarian state. Existed in the GDR (East) but unthinkable in the Federal Republic (West). Maybe 15 years after reunification (don't quote me on the exact number) a permament nationwide tax id was introduced. With the promise that its usage will forever be limited to tax offices and exchange with any other authorities is illegal. Another 15 years later that promise was "forgotten" and now the tax id can be exchanged with many authorities. It's relatively new and probably not widely used yet. But the dams have been opened.
    - Crespyl 3y ago
      That sounds a bit like how SSN use in the US has broadened from its original scope. Any government power, once granted, seems only to ever increase in scope.
    - lxgr 3y ago
      Yes, that's a better explanation of the constitutional status, thank you! (Supreme court decision vs. an explicit clause in the constitution.) FWIW, I think in this age of massive databases that can be effortlessly joined on fuzzy matching criteria, the lack of a unique person identifier is more of a hurdle for legitimate use cases than a safety measure against government or corporate overreach. One good thing about it is the complete lack of the horrible "SSN as both primary key and bearer authentication token" pattern that's commonplace in the US, though – but the alternatives are pretty annoying, in my experience.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

zokier 3y ago

The description implies that it does name matching only: > This online service compares the name read from your ID card, your electronic residence permit or eID card for citizens of the European Union with the name specified in your OpenPGP key. If the names match, your public key is electronically signed by Governikus, confirming the match.

haukem 3y ago

Germany does not use a global unique identifier like the social security number in the US. The Germans do not like such global identifier for people because the the Nazis used them and data protection is very important in Germany.

r3drock 3y ago
This is in fact not correct. There are two unique identifiers for every german citizen, first the so called "Rentenversicherungsnummer" and the "Steueridentifikationsnummer". Both are assigned at birth.
- haukem 3y ago
  Yes that is correct, but they are not much used outside of the service they are intended for.
  - germanier 3y ago
    The Steuer-ID is now intended to be used as a global identifier. The law is already enacted, but there are still some technical questions open. See https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/pressemitteilungen/DE/2021/04/registermodernisierungsgesetz-verkuendet.html https://www.bmi.bund.de/SharedDocs/pressemitteilungen/DE/202...
    - usr1106 3y ago
      That's "propaganda" by the ministery, not answering many questions. They only claim that all government administration will become digital, smooth, and much cheaper. Is it allowed to use the Steuer-ID for non-government purposes?
      - germanier 3y ago
        An enacted law is not "propaganda", it's the law. You can ignore all the fluff around the factual statements if you like. The number is only intended to be used by government entities. The law restricts usage to census and communication with government entities (as well as already established tax-related use).

netsharc 3y ago

I wonder if the city of birth is relevant too for uniqueness. I imagine the collision prevention then falls in the hands of the city administration office. It'd be funny if there's a Hans Müller born on 31 May 2023 in Frankfurt, and another Müller family wants to register a Hans, also born in Frankfurt, also on the same date, they might say "Sorry, that name is taken already". Of course it'd be complicated if e.g. the 2 Hanses were born in a foreign country with no such checks, and moved to Germany later on...

usr1106 3y ago
I have never heard that there would be legal basis to refuse registering a name because it's duplicate.
oezi 3y ago
It certainly isn't prohibited but does cause issues if Name/DoB/City of Birth coincide. There are a few cases where speeding tickets and arrest warrants end up with the wrong Mr. Müller.