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> Furthermore, the majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish The Holocaust is defined in the first sentence as "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-s

by maratc 3y ago

> Furthermore, the majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish The Holocaust is defined in the first sentence as "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators." I don't think you really meant to claim that "majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish".

that_guy_iain 3y ago
Look at the victim counts in the document titled "DOCUMENTING NUMBERS OF VICTIMS OF THE HOLOCAUST AND NAZI PERSECUTION". If you wish to argue with with them over it, feel free.
- maratc 3y ago
  Holocaust is one thing, Nazi persecution is another thing. Persecutions are a terrible thing — and Nazi persecution especially so — but it (and others) just fall short on the scale of atrocities, when being compared to the Holocaust. Either you don't understand what exactly the Holocaust is, or you're spreading a modern version of Holocaust denial, where by "modern version" I mean not "this didn't happen" but "this did happen but so what".
  - that_guy_iain 3y ago
    > Persecutions are a terrible thing — and Nazi persecution especially so — but it (and others) just fall short on the scale of atrocities, when being compared to the Holocaust. > > Either you don't understand what exactly the Holocaust is, I would say it's more likely you don't understand. The Nazis committed genocide againist multiple groups at the exact same time using the same people, same locations, and same methods. To say the horrors committed on 8 million plus people fall short of the same horrors comitted to 6 million just because of their race is fundamentally racist. However, the reason you have the opinion you have is almost certainly related to the cold war, where those 8 million people plus became victims of the enemy of the west and the west focused on the 6 million Jews. Also, the overall rise of power included far more antisentism than anything else. It's understandable why you think the way you do, however, it's not acceptable to not educate yourself when given valid sources. There is a reason Auschwitz came out with the statement. And they'll also tell you of all the other people other than Jews that died at Auschwitz. They know their history.
    - maratc 3y ago
      > The Nazis committed genocide againist multiple groups at the exact same time using the same people, same locations, and same methods. You seem to not understand the term "genocide", thinking it means "mass murder". It doesn't mean that. The difference between "mass murder" and "genocide" is that genocide (as postulated by USHMM) is a. systematic, b. bureaucratic, and c. state-sponsored, while "mass murder" is either none of that, or at the very least not all of that. The "final solution to the Jewish question", as suggested, planned, and implemented by the Nazis, started with an intent to eliminate the Jews, regardless of their sex, age, or beliefs, to the very last one of them — and planning to the point of realizing that intent, complete with sparing no effort at all, to see that intent to full implementation. The only other ethnical/racial group targeted in the same manner was the Sinti/Roma people. Their prosecution and murder, which is also undeniably an instance of genocide ("killing of a nation"), is known as Porajmos. This is not meant in any way to diminish the terrible suffering of other groups who were targeted and prosecuted by the Nazi regime — Soviet civilians, Polish civilians, prisoners of war, German homosexuals, the mentally disabled, Jehovah witnesses, and others (the list is very long). But the Nazis never had an intent, planning, bureaucracy, or effort to eliminate these groups until the very last one of them — in the way they had with regards to Jews or Roma/Sinti. They never asked the occupied France to deliver French homosexuals, of whom they never cared to begin with. They never asked Hungary to turn over their mentally disabled so they could be sent to extermination camps, the way they did ask for Jews. And they never sent a huge war ship to a remote Greek island for a single Jehovah witness living there — but they did that to pick one Jew. The Holocaust, as any genocide, is not "just" mass murder. It's an intentional, planned, and duly executed mass murder of an entire people, when the complete and utter elimination of that ethnical/racial group is the declared and practical end goal.
- Dig1t 3y ago
  https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documentin... I think this is the link you are talking about. Under the "number of deaths section": > Jews: 6 million > Soviet civilians: around 7 million (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews) >Repeat criminal offenders and so-called asocials: at least 70,000 etc So yes, I think you are right, non-jews were killed as apart of the holocaust, but it is defined as "The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators." I agree it doesn't really seem fair to ignore the other 50% of people that were killed and only ever define it as the killing of Jews.

by maratc 3y ago

that_guy_iain 3y ago

Look at the victim counts in the document titled "DOCUMENTING NUMBERS OF VICTIMS OF THE HOLOCAUST AND NAZI PERSECUTION". If you wish to argue with with them over it, feel free.

maratc 3y ago
Holocaust is one thing, Nazi persecution is another thing. Persecutions are a terrible thing — and Nazi persecution especially so — but it (and others) just fall short on the scale of atrocities, when being compared to the Holocaust. Either you don't understand what exactly the Holocaust is, or you're spreading a modern version of Holocaust denial, where by "modern version" I mean not "this didn't happen" but "this did happen but so what".
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  > Persecutions are a terrible thing — and Nazi persecution especially so — but it (and others) just fall short on the scale of atrocities, when being compared to the Holocaust. > > Either you don't understand what exactly the Holocaust is, I would say it's more likely you don't understand. The Nazis committed genocide againist multiple groups at the exact same time using the same people, same locations, and same methods. To say the horrors committed on 8 million plus people fall short of the same horrors comitted to 6 million just because of their race is fundamentally racist. However, the reason you have the opinion you have is almost certainly related to the cold war, where those 8 million people plus became victims of the enemy of the west and the west focused on the 6 million Jews. Also, the overall rise of power included far more antisentism than anything else. It's understandable why you think the way you do, however, it's not acceptable to not educate yourself when given valid sources. There is a reason Auschwitz came out with the statement. And they'll also tell you of all the other people other than Jews that died at Auschwitz. They know their history.
  - maratc 3y ago
    > The Nazis committed genocide againist multiple groups at the exact same time using the same people, same locations, and same methods. You seem to not understand the term "genocide", thinking it means "mass murder". It doesn't mean that. The difference between "mass murder" and "genocide" is that genocide (as postulated by USHMM) is a. systematic, b. bureaucratic, and c. state-sponsored, while "mass murder" is either none of that, or at the very least not all of that. The "final solution to the Jewish question", as suggested, planned, and implemented by the Nazis, started with an intent to eliminate the Jews, regardless of their sex, age, or beliefs, to the very last one of them — and planning to the point of realizing that intent, complete with sparing no effort at all, to see that intent to full implementation. The only other ethnical/racial group targeted in the same manner was the Sinti/Roma people. Their prosecution and murder, which is also undeniably an instance of genocide ("killing of a nation"), is known as Porajmos. This is not meant in any way to diminish the terrible suffering of other groups who were targeted and prosecuted by the Nazi regime — Soviet civilians, Polish civilians, prisoners of war, German homosexuals, the mentally disabled, Jehovah witnesses, and others (the list is very long). But the Nazis never had an intent, planning, bureaucracy, or effort to eliminate these groups until the very last one of them — in the way they had with regards to Jews or Roma/Sinti. They never asked the occupied France to deliver French homosexuals, of whom they never cared to begin with. They never asked Hungary to turn over their mentally disabled so they could be sent to extermination camps, the way they did ask for Jews. And they never sent a huge war ship to a remote Greek island for a single Jehovah witness living there — but they did that to pick one Jew. The Holocaust, as any genocide, is not "just" mass murder. It's an intentional, planned, and duly executed mass murder of an entire people, when the complete and utter elimination of that ethnical/racial group is the declared and practical end goal.
Dig1t 3y ago
https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documentin... I think this is the link you are talking about. Under the "number of deaths section": > Jews: 6 million > Soviet civilians: around 7 million (including 1.3 Soviet Jewish civilians, who are included in the 6 million figure for Jews) >Repeat criminal offenders and so-called asocials: at least 70,000 etc So yes, I think you are right, non-jews were killed as apart of the holocaust, but it is defined as "The Holocaust was the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators." I agree it doesn't really seem fair to ignore the other 50% of people that were killed and only ever define it as the killing of Jews.