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Actually, there was only ever a mention of a final solution. No real understanding of what that meant. This resulted in allied forces, who had spies throughout

Actually, there was only ever a mention of a final solution. No real understanding of what that meant. This resulted in allied forces, who had spies throughout the Third Reich, being completely shocked by the camps when they found them. The fact, Allied Forces who were better informed than the average German Ciziten had no idea what was happening is a major sign that they didn't know. Furthermore, if you read any of the books written by Germans who lived through that time they'll often say they didn't know what was happening and in one book about a kid who went through the ranks of the Hitler youth, I believe he thought they were fine in the camps and thought people just moved away. Now, in other countries such as the Netherlands the story was different but victims often know the full truth instead of getting told a story. Rewriting history isn't that cool. Furthermore, the majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish, they were civilians. [1] [1] https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documenting-numbers-of-victims-of-the-holocaust-and-nazi-persecution https://encyclopedia.ushmm.org/content/en/article/documentin...

jcranmer 3y ago
> Furthermore, if you read any of the books written by Germans who lived through that time they'll often say they didn't know what was happening and in one book about a kid who went through the ranks of the Hitler youth, I believe he thought they were fine in the camps and thought people just moved away. From what I've read, the Holocaust was a pretty open secret in Germany. Wikipedia [1] cites studies suggesting that 30-50% of German adults during WWII were aware of the Holocaust, and I'm inclined to believe the higher estimates (especially if you include people who could reasonably suspect that extermination was going on but didn't want to think too hard on it lest they realize their own moral culpability). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocau...
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  What have you been reading? And an open secret pretty much means it wasn't public policy or politics. And higher estimates don't really make sense, why were the allied forces in the dark? Why were the death camps in Poland and not Germany? People who were living nearby, I will never be convinced they didn't know. But expecting someone in Fankfurt am Main to know about the mass executions happening in small towns in Poland during a time where the country was at war and trying to keep things hush hush so the allied forces don't find out. > Johnson suggests (in disagreement with his co-author) that it is more likely that about 50% of the German population were aware of the atrocities being committed against the Jewish people and other enemies identified by the Nazi regime.[46] To me this reads as someone wanting to say a high number to make things sound bad. There are always people who are going to do that. And I think this thread is exactly that. Frame it in the worst possible way to make a point. But the realities are different. To disagree with experts in the field to say they're wrong and it was something different from what they say is arrogance at the highest order. Especially, when basic logic and reasoning say it wasn't politically motivated. It was motivated by a deranged lunatic who hatred of Jews dates all the way back to when he lived in Vienna and whose hatred of Jews got in the way of everything else which is shown by the fact he increased the killings at the end of the war. The fact, the holocaust as we know it didn't really start until well after political decisions were made. So really, I think it's a fair question to ask was an event that happened well after politics was important a political event or are making it one to fit our narrative? So far the answers have been that it was a clear policy which has been refuted and instead it was an open secret with numbers of people who knew being refuted by the very source that is giving them.
  - jruohonen 3y ago
    > Why were the death camps in Poland and not Germany? Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Oranienburg, Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen... You can argue about the semantics (i.e., death camps versus concentration camps), but massive executions happened in both, and some of these were established throughout Germany almost immediately after the regime change in 1933. That said, see the points below about Holocaust.
    - that_guy_iain 3y ago
      > You can argue about the semantics (i.e., death camps versus concentration camps), Hundreds of thousands of deaths is semantics? That is a disgusting point of view. I wanted to ignore this entire conversation because there is no postive side to it. But quite simply it is disgusting to minimise the horrors that happened at camps like Auschwitz by comparing it with camps such as Dachau and it really highlights the fact that the opinions that oppose the opinion of the Auschwitz museum as held by people who are fundamentally deatched from what actually happening and having the correct perspective.
      - jruohonen 3y ago
        Read my comment again: it was a reply to your false claim that there weren't camps in Germany.
        that_guy_iain 3y ago
        I didn't claim there were no camps in Germany, I said there were no death camps - camps built to kill people, camps equipped for mass killing. Your response was to mention other camps and to say the difference between them is semantics when the difference between them is literally hundreds of thousands of deaths.
        jruohonen 3y ago
        I think it is still semantics, and particularly semantics invented by the regime itself, which had a whole vocabulary for camps. But by no means am I trying to downplay the atrocities that happened in the extermination camps, including Auschwitz-Birkenau where I've also been. The examples were given to you to refute your mission about Germans not knowing what was happening; political opponents, Jews, criminals, minorities, and others were interred already in the 1930s.
maratc 3y ago
> Furthermore, the majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish The Holocaust is defined in the first sentence as "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators." I don't think you really meant to claim that "majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish".
- that_guy_iain 3y ago
  Look at the victim counts in the document titled "DOCUMENTING NUMBERS OF VICTIMS OF THE HOLOCAUST AND NAZI PERSECUTION". If you wish to argue with with them over it, feel free.
  - maratc 3y ago
    Holocaust is one thing, Nazi persecution is another thing. Persecutions are a terrible thing — and Nazi persecution especially so — but it (and others) just fall short on the scale of atrocities, when being compared to the Holocaust. Either you don't understand what exactly the Holocaust is, or you're spreading a modern version of Holocaust denial, where by "modern version" I mean not "this didn't happen" but "this did happen but so what".
    - that_guy_iain 3y ago
      > Persecutions are a terrible thing — and Nazi persecution especially so — but it (and others) just fall short on the scale of atrocities, when being compared to the Holocaust. > > Either you don't understand what exactly the Holocaust is, I would say it's more likely you don't understand. The Nazis committed genocide againist multiple groups at the exact same time using the same people, same locations, and same methods. To say the horrors committed on 8 million plus people fall short of the same horrors comitted to 6 million just because of their race is fundamentally racist. However, the reason you have the opinion you have is almost certainly related to the cold war, where those 8 million people plus became victims of the enemy of the west and the west focused on the 6 million Jews. Also, the overall rise of power included far more antisentism than anything else. It's understandable why you think the way you do, however, it's not acceptable to not educate yourself when given valid sources. There is a reason Auschwitz came out with the statement. And they'll also tell you of all the other people other than Jews that died at Auschwitz. They know their history.
beezlewax 3y ago
Do you think the people in the general population who knew the extent of the atrocities were likely to admit the same post war? Its more likely they knew and just denied having known to save face. Kids being indoctrinated in youth camps is a different matter entirely.
giraffe_lady 3y ago
This is straight up holocaust denial. First hand documents (letters and memoirs) of polish jews show that rumors of death camps in germany were common as early as 1942, and some had word of mouth knowledge that later turned out to be almost completely accurate. By 1944 accounts from jews all over europe show routine knowledge of death camps in germany & hungary. Pogroms had been going on for years at that point. People knew what the final solution was intended to be. Jews a country away certainly did anyway, why would germans not?

jcranmer 3y ago

> Furthermore, if you read any of the books written by Germans who lived through that time they'll often say they didn't know what was happening and in one book about a kid who went through the ranks of the Hitler youth, I believe he thought they were fine in the camps and thought people just moved away. From what I've read, the Holocaust was a pretty open secret in Germany. Wikipedia [1] cites studies suggesting that 30-50% of German adults during WWII were aware of the Holocaust, and I'm inclined to believe the higher estimates (especially if you include people who could reasonably suspect that extermination was going on but didn't want to think too hard on it lest they realize their own moral culpability). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocaust https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_Holocau...

that_guy_iain 3y ago
What have you been reading? And an open secret pretty much means it wasn't public policy or politics. And higher estimates don't really make sense, why were the allied forces in the dark? Why were the death camps in Poland and not Germany? People who were living nearby, I will never be convinced they didn't know. But expecting someone in Fankfurt am Main to know about the mass executions happening in small towns in Poland during a time where the country was at war and trying to keep things hush hush so the allied forces don't find out. > Johnson suggests (in disagreement with his co-author) that it is more likely that about 50% of the German population were aware of the atrocities being committed against the Jewish people and other enemies identified by the Nazi regime.[46] To me this reads as someone wanting to say a high number to make things sound bad. There are always people who are going to do that. And I think this thread is exactly that. Frame it in the worst possible way to make a point. But the realities are different. To disagree with experts in the field to say they're wrong and it was something different from what they say is arrogance at the highest order. Especially, when basic logic and reasoning say it wasn't politically motivated. It was motivated by a deranged lunatic who hatred of Jews dates all the way back to when he lived in Vienna and whose hatred of Jews got in the way of everything else which is shown by the fact he increased the killings at the end of the war. The fact, the holocaust as we know it didn't really start until well after political decisions were made. So really, I think it's a fair question to ask was an event that happened well after politics was important a political event or are making it one to fit our narrative? So far the answers have been that it was a clear policy which has been refuted and instead it was an open secret with numbers of people who knew being refuted by the very source that is giving them.
- jruohonen 3y ago
  > Why were the death camps in Poland and not Germany? Bergen-Belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Oranienburg, Ravensbrück, Sachsenhausen... You can argue about the semantics (i.e., death camps versus concentration camps), but massive executions happened in both, and some of these were established throughout Germany almost immediately after the regime change in 1933. That said, see the points below about Holocaust.
  - that_guy_iain 3y ago
    > You can argue about the semantics (i.e., death camps versus concentration camps), Hundreds of thousands of deaths is semantics? That is a disgusting point of view. I wanted to ignore this entire conversation because there is no postive side to it. But quite simply it is disgusting to minimise the horrors that happened at camps like Auschwitz by comparing it with camps such as Dachau and it really highlights the fact that the opinions that oppose the opinion of the Auschwitz museum as held by people who are fundamentally deatched from what actually happening and having the correct perspective.
    - jruohonen 3y ago
      Read my comment again: it was a reply to your false claim that there weren't camps in Germany.
      - that_guy_iain 3y ago
        I didn't claim there were no camps in Germany, I said there were no death camps - camps built to kill people, camps equipped for mass killing. Your response was to mention other camps and to say the difference between them is semantics when the difference between them is literally hundreds of thousands of deaths.
        jruohonen 3y ago
        I think it is still semantics, and particularly semantics invented by the regime itself, which had a whole vocabulary for camps. But by no means am I trying to downplay the atrocities that happened in the extermination camps, including Auschwitz-Birkenau where I've also been. The examples were given to you to refute your mission about Germans not knowing what was happening; political opponents, Jews, criminals, minorities, and others were interred already in the 1930s.

maratc 3y ago

> Furthermore, the majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish The Holocaust is defined in the first sentence as "the systematic, bureaucratic, state-sponsored persecution and murder of six million Jewish men, women and children by the Nazi regime and its collaborators." I don't think you really meant to claim that "majority of victims of the holocaust weren't Jewish".

that_guy_iain 3y ago
Look at the victim counts in the document titled "DOCUMENTING NUMBERS OF VICTIMS OF THE HOLOCAUST AND NAZI PERSECUTION". If you wish to argue with with them over it, feel free.
- maratc 3y ago
  Holocaust is one thing, Nazi persecution is another thing. Persecutions are a terrible thing — and Nazi persecution especially so — but it (and others) just fall short on the scale of atrocities, when being compared to the Holocaust. Either you don't understand what exactly the Holocaust is, or you're spreading a modern version of Holocaust denial, where by "modern version" I mean not "this didn't happen" but "this did happen but so what".
  - that_guy_iain 3y ago
    > Persecutions are a terrible thing — and Nazi persecution especially so — but it (and others) just fall short on the scale of atrocities, when being compared to the Holocaust. > > Either you don't understand what exactly the Holocaust is, I would say it's more likely you don't understand. The Nazis committed genocide againist multiple groups at the exact same time using the same people, same locations, and same methods. To say the horrors committed on 8 million plus people fall short of the same horrors comitted to 6 million just because of their race is fundamentally racist. However, the reason you have the opinion you have is almost certainly related to the cold war, where those 8 million people plus became victims of the enemy of the west and the west focused on the 6 million Jews. Also, the overall rise of power included far more antisentism than anything else. It's understandable why you think the way you do, however, it's not acceptable to not educate yourself when given valid sources. There is a reason Auschwitz came out with the statement. And they'll also tell you of all the other people other than Jews that died at Auschwitz. They know their history.

beezlewax 3y ago

Do you think the people in the general population who knew the extent of the atrocities were likely to admit the same post war? Its more likely they knew and just denied having known to save face. Kids being indoctrinated in youth camps is a different matter entirely.

giraffe_lady 3y ago

This is straight up holocaust denial. First hand documents (letters and memoirs) of polish jews show that rumors of death camps in germany were common as early as 1942, and some had word of mouth knowledge that later turned out to be almost completely accurate. By 1944 accounts from jews all over europe show routine knowledge of death camps in germany & hungary. Pogroms had been going on for years at that point. People knew what the final solution was intended to be. Jews a country away certainly did anyway, why would germans not?