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The problem with the LibDems is the gap between what they say and what they do. The reason they are in such dire straits is that when they got a sniff of power

by Veen 3y ago

The problem with the LibDems is the gap between what they say and what they do. The reason they are in such dire straits is that when they got a sniff of power and joined a coalition with the Tories, they abandoned a number of key election promises and royally pissed off their core vote. (And when they were punished in the polls for this, their leader quit and got a job as Facebook's amoral bullshitter in chief.) Plus, the LibDems support all the amoral creepy shit, anyway. Unfortunately, it's got cross-party support, as has the Online Safety Bill.

dmix 3y ago
Has there ever been a political party that wasn’t a disappointment once in power in the last few decades? You basically have to choose the least bad options.
- dsign 3y ago
  I don't get why we put up with political parties at all... is it to have somebody to blame, somebody who is not ourselves? Because, if it wasn't so, we would enact direct democracy, and the next time that a lobby group wants to pocket a politician, it would have to pocket each and every single citizen...which I guess they could do by paying voluntary taxes...
  - Veen 3y ago
    If we had direct democracy in the UK, immigration would be banned, Brexit would have happened in the 1980s, and murderers and child molesters would be hanged.
    - Ntrails 3y ago
      - yes and no, I suspect you would see a stricter system with numerical limits. Aus is often touted as a good example - the EEC would have stayed as just that, I suspect. Perhaps the EU would have formed without us, hard to know. - yup
  - Analemma_ 3y ago
    > I don't get why we put up with political parties at all... For two reasons: First, because politics is an ecosystem, and political parties are much stronger than unorganized political actors, so they outcompete and win. Your effectiveness is multiplied tremendously if you have an organized group which can fundraise, make small compromises among its members to reach common goals, scan membership to find compelling leaders, etc. Unorganized political actors have no chance against parties, and so they adapt (by becoming parties themselves) or die. Second, because "political parties" are just a fact of gathering large numbers of humans: they will always have different opinions, and form tribes and cliques with like-minded people. If you don't have explicit parties, you will have hidden, implicit, internal ones, and that is much worse. See The Tyranny of Structurelessness, or alternatively one-party states like China, which still do have political factions, because having political factions is something people naturally do, but hide these behind the opacity of the CCP, leading to much less transparent decision-making.
    - mistermann 3y ago
      Organization seems like a missing link. And then there's this: https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/04/could-tiktok-ban-bill-criminalize-vpn-use-the-eff-says-its-not-impossible/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/tech-policy/202... I do not think our rulers (or their advisors at least) are complete dummies.
- zabzonk 3y ago
  yes, blair's first labour government. things did go off the tracks later.
- JackFr 3y ago
  > You basically have to choose the least bad options. Do you? I choose not to vote because I refuse to participate in a charade of false consensus. If you pick the lesser of two evils, you are still picking evil. The obvious -- yet never stated -- reason voter turnout is so bad in the United States is that the candidates offered are such garbage.
  - davisoneee 3y ago
    In the case that the greater of two evils wins, you are then complicit. The world isn't perfect. There will always be issues with candidates, because the world is messy and complex. If you chose not to vote for the lesser of two evils, you leave more opportunity for the _greater_ to succeed.
    - JackFr 3y ago
      "I can either punch you in the face or kick you in the crotch. Which will it be?" "What are you complaining about? You asked for it?"
      - davisoneee 3y ago
        I didn't say you asked for it...I said you're going to get it either way, so make the best of a bad situation. Sticking your head in the sand just gives more opportunity for _you_ to get the worse outcome.
        JackFr 3y ago
        You don’t seem to get it. By continuing to participate you are prolonging it. Dream bigger. I mean unless you love the current shitshow. https://www.solzhenitsyncenter.org/live-not-by-lies https://www.solzhenitsyncenter.org/live-not-by-lies I know I’m not living in a totalitarian state like Solzhenitsyn, but yet I am refusing to eat dog shit cause it tastes better than cat shit.
        3y ago

by Veen 3y ago

dmix 3y ago

Has there ever been a political party that wasn’t a disappointment once in power in the last few decades? You basically have to choose the least bad options.

dsign 3y ago
I don't get why we put up with political parties at all... is it to have somebody to blame, somebody who is not ourselves? Because, if it wasn't so, we would enact direct democracy, and the next time that a lobby group wants to pocket a politician, it would have to pocket each and every single citizen...which I guess they could do by paying voluntary taxes...
- Veen 3y ago
  If we had direct democracy in the UK, immigration would be banned, Brexit would have happened in the 1980s, and murderers and child molesters would be hanged.
  - Ntrails 3y ago
    - yes and no, I suspect you would see a stricter system with numerical limits. Aus is often touted as a good example - the EEC would have stayed as just that, I suspect. Perhaps the EU would have formed without us, hard to know. - yup
- Analemma_ 3y ago
  > I don't get why we put up with political parties at all... For two reasons: First, because politics is an ecosystem, and political parties are much stronger than unorganized political actors, so they outcompete and win. Your effectiveness is multiplied tremendously if you have an organized group which can fundraise, make small compromises among its members to reach common goals, scan membership to find compelling leaders, etc. Unorganized political actors have no chance against parties, and so they adapt (by becoming parties themselves) or die. Second, because "political parties" are just a fact of gathering large numbers of humans: they will always have different opinions, and form tribes and cliques with like-minded people. If you don't have explicit parties, you will have hidden, implicit, internal ones, and that is much worse. See The Tyranny of Structurelessness, or alternatively one-party states like China, which still do have political factions, because having political factions is something people naturally do, but hide these behind the opacity of the CCP, leading to much less transparent decision-making.
  - mistermann 3y ago
    Organization seems like a missing link. And then there's this: https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2023/04/could-tiktok-ban-bill-criminalize-vpn-use-the-eff-says-its-not-impossible/amp/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/tech-policy/202... I do not think our rulers (or their advisors at least) are complete dummies.
zabzonk 3y ago
yes, blair's first labour government. things did go off the tracks later.
JackFr 3y ago
> You basically have to choose the least bad options. Do you? I choose not to vote because I refuse to participate in a charade of false consensus. If you pick the lesser of two evils, you are still picking evil. The obvious -- yet never stated -- reason voter turnout is so bad in the United States is that the candidates offered are such garbage.
- davisoneee 3y ago
  In the case that the greater of two evils wins, you are then complicit. The world isn't perfect. There will always be issues with candidates, because the world is messy and complex. If you chose not to vote for the lesser of two evils, you leave more opportunity for the _greater_ to succeed.
  - JackFr 3y ago
    "I can either punch you in the face or kick you in the crotch. Which will it be?" "What are you complaining about? You asked for it?"
    - davisoneee 3y ago
      I didn't say you asked for it...I said you're going to get it either way, so make the best of a bad situation. Sticking your head in the sand just gives more opportunity for _you_ to get the worse outcome.
      - JackFr 3y ago
        You don’t seem to get it. By continuing to participate you are prolonging it. Dream bigger. I mean unless you love the current shitshow. https://www.solzhenitsyncenter.org/live-not-by-lies https://www.solzhenitsyncenter.org/live-not-by-lies I know I’m not living in a totalitarian state like Solzhenitsyn, but yet I am refusing to eat dog shit cause it tastes better than cat shit.
        3y ago