6 ms·

It's quite simple: save the sexual jokes for the pub with your friends, not the workplace. The massive gender imbalance in IT leads to skewed perceptions of wh

by orra 3y ago

It's quite simple: save the sexual jokes for the pub with your friends, not the workplace. The massive gender imbalance in IT leads to skewed perceptions of what is acceptable in a professional environment. This in turn helps perpetuate gender imbalance. Simply, women do not want to work and get harassed. I'd rather have more women in programming, than men who think sexual harassment is okay in a professional enviroment.

jemmyw 3y ago
Sure I agree with everything you say, except that the jokes made were not sexual harassment. Overhearing something you don't like between strangers you are not involved with is not harassment. This is treading very old ground, but a simple "keep it to yourselves" from the listener or the conference organiser is the total remonstration and "training" anyone required in that circumstance. The people making jokes were contrite, and all of us sometimes slightly lose our heads when among friends at events, even professional ones.
- DannyBee 3y ago
  "Overhearing something you don't like between strangers you are not involved with is not harassment" 1. It definitely can be (by legal, social, etc definitions), and it's very silly to claim otherwise in any form of generality. Like if I overhear you talking about what you want to do to my breasts or whatever, congrats, you've harassed me even if you didn't mean me to hear. I don't remember the particular jokes here enough to give a more particularized view, but your statement is pretty general. In any case, 2. To the degree it isn't harassment, it can also be considered creation of a hostile work environment (even at a conference), which is also actionable and has been for many decades (ie this is not some new recent thing). The most common form you will find is probably exactly this: people making inappropriate jokes loud enough for others to hear.
  - jemmyw 3y ago
    You're most likely correct. I personally think the lines have been drawn in a way that catches out people who are not being malicious, making some people over sensitive to basic human dialogue, and still not properly going after those who are actually malicious. And it's actually making us mix less with colleagues. Maybe the ends justify it, feels rather cold to me.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
    When do you expect this process to show positive results? Reductio ad absurdum, like, what if you don't overhear me talking about what I want to do to your breasts, is that harassment too? Your being absurd by assuming your experience generalises to the whole population, and that the way you think things should change is the way things should change. I'm willing to bet boob, dick, and bum jokes will be proven more durable than this bout of lunacy.
    - DannyBee 3y ago
      "When do you expect this process to show positive results?" Given that "Mad Men" is no longer considered standard acceptable workplace behavior, uh, i think it did already? These are not new laws, they started in ~1964 (in the US), and have shown positive results pretty quickly? "Reductio ad absurdum, like, what if you don't overhear me talking about what I want to do to your breasts, is that harassment too?" Yes, actually, but i'm sure you know this. You act as if this is all some horrible form of oppression - sexual harassment law is ... not particularly hard to avoid violating. There are certainly edge cases, but like, it's really not that hard to avoid sexually harassing your coworkers. You'd have a stronger argument about PC and more general "acceptable workplace behavior" or something. "Your being absurd by assuming your experience generalises to the whole population, and that the way you think things should change is the way things should change." Uh, you think that sexual harassment law does not enjoy broad support? Okay? "I'm willing to bet boob, dick, and bum jokes will be proven more durable than this bout of lunacy." In the workplace, so far you have turned out pretty wrong, and this "bout of lunacy" has been going on for well over half a century in the US, and longer elsewhere. So maybe you should reconsider.
blq10 3y ago
The point here is that what is considered sexual harassment is itself political. I can hear all kinds of overtly racist and sexist statements from my female colleagues, but because they are women, and their comments are directed at white folks and male folks, they are totally safe from this sort of retribution. (Ex. "I didn't want to move here because it's eyeroll so white") Meanwhile, an (admittedly juvenile) set of jokes gets some people fired.
- 1827163 3y ago
  Yes, I have received harassment from women when I was younger. And there was very little that could be done about it, people would not take it seriously. That includes being sexually assaulted in high school, it happened because I was so eccentric it attracted "bad" girls. But as a guy, if I did one tiny thing wrong I would be labelled all sorts of nasty things. It could be as little as being slightly too friendly to a woman somewhere, because I am really happy, having a really good day, and I would be treated horribly. This is a widespread rampant problem in society. It's being seen as "harassment" when it's coming from men. But not so when it's coming from women.
  - marcinzm 3y ago
    You've just described what most every woman I have talked to says their life is like including massive fear of retaliation, fairly common harassment (including from strangers in public), etc. The whole reason for the metoo movement is because the massive fear and retaliation for speaking up.
    - blq10 3y ago
      Is there fear of retaliation when the reaction is almost universally media fawning for the bravery of speaking up, and importantly, has been for 20 ish years?
      - marcinzm 3y ago
        Yes. Look someone actually asked people and put together the surveys in a single place that is just a quick Google search away. https://inspiredelearning.com/blog/sexual-harassment-in-the-workplace-statistics/ https://inspiredelearning.com/blog/sexual-harassment-in-the-...

by orra 3y ago

jemmyw 3y ago

Sure I agree with everything you say, except that the jokes made were not sexual harassment. Overhearing something you don't like between strangers you are not involved with is not harassment. This is treading very old ground, but a simple "keep it to yourselves" from the listener or the conference organiser is the total remonstration and "training" anyone required in that circumstance. The people making jokes were contrite, and all of us sometimes slightly lose our heads when among friends at events, even professional ones.

DannyBee 3y ago
"Overhearing something you don't like between strangers you are not involved with is not harassment" 1. It definitely can be (by legal, social, etc definitions), and it's very silly to claim otherwise in any form of generality. Like if I overhear you talking about what you want to do to my breasts or whatever, congrats, you've harassed me even if you didn't mean me to hear. I don't remember the particular jokes here enough to give a more particularized view, but your statement is pretty general. In any case, 2. To the degree it isn't harassment, it can also be considered creation of a hostile work environment (even at a conference), which is also actionable and has been for many decades (ie this is not some new recent thing). The most common form you will find is probably exactly this: people making inappropriate jokes loud enough for others to hear.
- jemmyw 3y ago
  You're most likely correct. I personally think the lines have been drawn in a way that catches out people who are not being malicious, making some people over sensitive to basic human dialogue, and still not properly going after those who are actually malicious. And it's actually making us mix less with colleagues. Maybe the ends justify it, feels rather cold to me.
- TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
  When do you expect this process to show positive results? Reductio ad absurdum, like, what if you don't overhear me talking about what I want to do to your breasts, is that harassment too? Your being absurd by assuming your experience generalises to the whole population, and that the way you think things should change is the way things should change. I'm willing to bet boob, dick, and bum jokes will be proven more durable than this bout of lunacy.
  - DannyBee 3y ago
    "When do you expect this process to show positive results?" Given that "Mad Men" is no longer considered standard acceptable workplace behavior, uh, i think it did already? These are not new laws, they started in ~1964 (in the US), and have shown positive results pretty quickly? "Reductio ad absurdum, like, what if you don't overhear me talking about what I want to do to your breasts, is that harassment too?" Yes, actually, but i'm sure you know this. You act as if this is all some horrible form of oppression - sexual harassment law is ... not particularly hard to avoid violating. There are certainly edge cases, but like, it's really not that hard to avoid sexually harassing your coworkers. You'd have a stronger argument about PC and more general "acceptable workplace behavior" or something. "Your being absurd by assuming your experience generalises to the whole population, and that the way you think things should change is the way things should change." Uh, you think that sexual harassment law does not enjoy broad support? Okay? "I'm willing to bet boob, dick, and bum jokes will be proven more durable than this bout of lunacy." In the workplace, so far you have turned out pretty wrong, and this "bout of lunacy" has been going on for well over half a century in the US, and longer elsewhere. So maybe you should reconsider.

blq10 3y ago

The point here is that what is considered sexual harassment is itself political. I can hear all kinds of overtly racist and sexist statements from my female colleagues, but because they are women, and their comments are directed at white folks and male folks, they are totally safe from this sort of retribution. (Ex. "I didn't want to move here because it's eyeroll so white") Meanwhile, an (admittedly juvenile) set of jokes gets some people fired.

1827163 3y ago
Yes, I have received harassment from women when I was younger. And there was very little that could be done about it, people would not take it seriously. That includes being sexually assaulted in high school, it happened because I was so eccentric it attracted "bad" girls. But as a guy, if I did one tiny thing wrong I would be labelled all sorts of nasty things. It could be as little as being slightly too friendly to a woman somewhere, because I am really happy, having a really good day, and I would be treated horribly. This is a widespread rampant problem in society. It's being seen as "harassment" when it's coming from men. But not so when it's coming from women.
- marcinzm 3y ago
  You've just described what most every woman I have talked to says their life is like including massive fear of retaliation, fairly common harassment (including from strangers in public), etc. The whole reason for the metoo movement is because the massive fear and retaliation for speaking up.
  - blq10 3y ago
    Is there fear of retaliation when the reaction is almost universally media fawning for the bravery of speaking up, and importantly, has been for 20 ish years?
    - marcinzm 3y ago
      Yes. Look someone actually asked people and put together the surveys in a single place that is just a quick Google search away. https://inspiredelearning.com/blog/sexual-harassment-in-the-workplace-statistics/ https://inspiredelearning.com/blog/sexual-harassment-in-the-...