6 ms·

There's no question about it: joking about dongles and forking, *for the innuendo", is immature. It also is unprofessional, and they were having the conversatio

by orra 3y ago

There's no question about it: joking about dongles and forking, *for the innuendo", is immature. It also is unprofessional, and they were having the conversation loudly enough to be heard by women and others nearby. Yes, there are far worse cases of sexual harassment. Nonetheless, it helps create an environment where people, especially women, understandably feel uncomfortable. The question then is what to do about it. IMO in the PyCon case, an apology and training would probably have been the best outcome, because losing your job is quite severe. Of course, if after training a problem is repeated, or if there is just one case of much more overt harassment, then firing is probably the least bad action. The difficulty with social media is sometimes it is impossible to call out toxic behaviour without there being an overreaction. That's unfortunate, but it doesn't mean toxic behaviour should be unaccountable (or overpunished).

jemmyw 3y ago
I'm sorry, are woman totally unable to handle hearing immature jokes? I certainly hear them making enough of them, it's not just a male past time. Part of being a human is having a body and making stupid jokes about it. The pervasive blanket prudishness that elicits offence at anything body related is really out of hand.
- zozbot234 3y ago
  > The pervasive blanket prudishness that elicits offence at anything body related is really out of hand. It comes with the territory of living in a low-trust society (which the U.S. pretty much is nowadays). Joking around about topics that might raise offense is a luxury we can't necessarily afford in every circumstance.
- orra 3y ago
  It's quite simple: save the sexual jokes for the pub with your friends, not the workplace. The massive gender imbalance in IT leads to skewed perceptions of what is acceptable in a professional environment. This in turn helps perpetuate gender imbalance. Simply, women do not want to work and get harassed. I'd rather have more women in programming, than men who think sexual harassment is okay in a professional enviroment.
  - jemmyw 3y ago
    Sure I agree with everything you say, except that the jokes made were not sexual harassment. Overhearing something you don't like between strangers you are not involved with is not harassment. This is treading very old ground, but a simple "keep it to yourselves" from the listener or the conference organiser is the total remonstration and "training" anyone required in that circumstance. The people making jokes were contrite, and all of us sometimes slightly lose our heads when among friends at events, even professional ones.
    - DannyBee 3y ago
      "Overhearing something you don't like between strangers you are not involved with is not harassment" 1. It definitely can be (by legal, social, etc definitions), and it's very silly to claim otherwise in any form of generality. Like if I overhear you talking about what you want to do to my breasts or whatever, congrats, you've harassed me even if you didn't mean me to hear. I don't remember the particular jokes here enough to give a more particularized view, but your statement is pretty general. In any case, 2. To the degree it isn't harassment, it can also be considered creation of a hostile work environment (even at a conference), which is also actionable and has been for many decades (ie this is not some new recent thing). The most common form you will find is probably exactly this: people making inappropriate jokes loud enough for others to hear.
      - jemmyw 3y ago
        You're most likely correct. I personally think the lines have been drawn in a way that catches out people who are not being malicious, making some people over sensitive to basic human dialogue, and still not properly going after those who are actually malicious. And it's actually making us mix less with colleagues. Maybe the ends justify it, feels rather cold to me.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
        When do you expect this process to show positive results? Reductio ad absurdum, like, what if you don't overhear me talking about what I want to do to your breasts, is that harassment too? Your being absurd by assuming your experience generalises to the whole population, and that the way you think things should change is the way things should change. I'm willing to bet boob, dick, and bum jokes will be proven more durable than this bout of lunacy.
- Ygg2 3y ago
  > I'm sorry, are woman totally unable to handle hearing immature jokes? In this day and age? Yes. Absolutely. Comedians often lament the death of comedy, and I can see why. People are super easily offended and even minor comments make them lose their marbles.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Comedians are not pining to tell immature 'jokes' about forking dongles, women have been handling that crap for decades and they're not finding it offensive just lame. What's changed is the feeling that it has to be endured without comment and left to slide in professional settings as happened in the past. I myself find it odd that people are super offended and lose their marbles now that women are expressing an opinion.
    - 1827163 3y ago
      It's more than just an opinion, it's costing people their careers and worse. The hypersensitivity of women can destroy mens lives over trifles in this day and age. With radical third wave feminists and their moral panics to blame for that. Meanwhile women can harass and even "stalk" men and get away with it, the problem is ignored in society. In most cases these behaviors are completely harmless. What makes it so infuriating is that if an equally harmless man did the same, he could be in trouble with the law for it. He is presumed potentially predatory and dangerous for being male. This is a clear cut case of discrimination.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
      As a chair leg, I find the idea that women are a unitary whole utterly absurd.
  - jemmyw 3y ago
    What actually got me was this line: > loudly enough to be heard by women This is actually degeneration of feminism and equality. It harks back to conservatism "cover your lady's ears so she doesn't hear the wisecracks" And it really doesn't square with the people I know. The men and women I've mixed with over the years are equal with the adult themed jokes. The rudest is the lady who lives next door. So I don't actually believe that women don't want to hear that kind of joking about. I think they don't want to hear the kind of joking about that I, and probably most men, don't want to hear either: The I'd screw her, "locker room" (not any locker room I've been in, they're mostly be quiet and get on with dressing places) talk. But the collateral damage is a subset of people who now feel empowered to suck all the enjoyment out of everyones life.

by orra 3y ago

jemmyw 3y ago

I'm sorry, are woman totally unable to handle hearing immature jokes? I certainly hear them making enough of them, it's not just a male past time. Part of being a human is having a body and making stupid jokes about it. The pervasive blanket prudishness that elicits offence at anything body related is really out of hand.

zozbot234 3y ago
> The pervasive blanket prudishness that elicits offence at anything body related is really out of hand. It comes with the territory of living in a low-trust society (which the U.S. pretty much is nowadays). Joking around about topics that might raise offense is a luxury we can't necessarily afford in every circumstance.
orra 3y ago
It's quite simple: save the sexual jokes for the pub with your friends, not the workplace. The massive gender imbalance in IT leads to skewed perceptions of what is acceptable in a professional environment. This in turn helps perpetuate gender imbalance. Simply, women do not want to work and get harassed. I'd rather have more women in programming, than men who think sexual harassment is okay in a professional enviroment.
- jemmyw 3y ago
  Sure I agree with everything you say, except that the jokes made were not sexual harassment. Overhearing something you don't like between strangers you are not involved with is not harassment. This is treading very old ground, but a simple "keep it to yourselves" from the listener or the conference organiser is the total remonstration and "training" anyone required in that circumstance. The people making jokes were contrite, and all of us sometimes slightly lose our heads when among friends at events, even professional ones.
  - DannyBee 3y ago
    "Overhearing something you don't like between strangers you are not involved with is not harassment" 1. It definitely can be (by legal, social, etc definitions), and it's very silly to claim otherwise in any form of generality. Like if I overhear you talking about what you want to do to my breasts or whatever, congrats, you've harassed me even if you didn't mean me to hear. I don't remember the particular jokes here enough to give a more particularized view, but your statement is pretty general. In any case, 2. To the degree it isn't harassment, it can also be considered creation of a hostile work environment (even at a conference), which is also actionable and has been for many decades (ie this is not some new recent thing). The most common form you will find is probably exactly this: people making inappropriate jokes loud enough for others to hear.
    - jemmyw 3y ago
      You're most likely correct. I personally think the lines have been drawn in a way that catches out people who are not being malicious, making some people over sensitive to basic human dialogue, and still not properly going after those who are actually malicious. And it's actually making us mix less with colleagues. Maybe the ends justify it, feels rather cold to me.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
      When do you expect this process to show positive results? Reductio ad absurdum, like, what if you don't overhear me talking about what I want to do to your breasts, is that harassment too? Your being absurd by assuming your experience generalises to the whole population, and that the way you think things should change is the way things should change. I'm willing to bet boob, dick, and bum jokes will be proven more durable than this bout of lunacy.
Ygg2 3y ago
> I'm sorry, are woman totally unable to handle hearing immature jokes? In this day and age? Yes. Absolutely. Comedians often lament the death of comedy, and I can see why. People are super easily offended and even minor comments make them lose their marbles.
- defrost 3y ago
  Comedians are not pining to tell immature 'jokes' about forking dongles, women have been handling that crap for decades and they're not finding it offensive just lame. What's changed is the feeling that it has to be endured without comment and left to slide in professional settings as happened in the past. I myself find it odd that people are super offended and lose their marbles now that women are expressing an opinion.
  - 1827163 3y ago
    It's more than just an opinion, it's costing people their careers and worse. The hypersensitivity of women can destroy mens lives over trifles in this day and age. With radical third wave feminists and their moral panics to blame for that. Meanwhile women can harass and even "stalk" men and get away with it, the problem is ignored in society. In most cases these behaviors are completely harmless. What makes it so infuriating is that if an equally harmless man did the same, he could be in trouble with the law for it. He is presumed potentially predatory and dangerous for being male. This is a clear cut case of discrimination.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 3y ago
    As a chair leg, I find the idea that women are a unitary whole utterly absurd.
- jemmyw 3y ago
  What actually got me was this line: > loudly enough to be heard by women This is actually degeneration of feminism and equality. It harks back to conservatism "cover your lady's ears so she doesn't hear the wisecracks" And it really doesn't square with the people I know. The men and women I've mixed with over the years are equal with the adult themed jokes. The rudest is the lady who lives next door. So I don't actually believe that women don't want to hear that kind of joking about. I think they don't want to hear the kind of joking about that I, and probably most men, don't want to hear either: The I'd screw her, "locker room" (not any locker room I've been in, they're mostly be quiet and get on with dressing places) talk. But the collateral damage is a subset of people who now feel empowered to suck all the enjoyment out of everyones life.