5 ms·
There has been a lot of talk about toxicity in developer environments over the years. I'm starting to feel we should take a step back in each such case and thi
by skinkestek 3y ago
There has been a lot of talk about toxicity in developer environments over the years.
I'm starting to feel we should take a step back in each such case and think:
Who is actually toxic in the current situation?
The person saying something to his friend next seat or the person on next row listening in, reporting it to PyCon and going public on Twitter about it?
The person who has a blueprint of a veteran hunting rifle on his screen or the person who photographs it and put it on Twitter?
A certain leader of an open source project who used to swear a lot, or the persons that were trying to frame him so hard that for a long time I have understood he went out of his way never to be alone with anyone?
And in this case: what are all these code of conducts for if people can destroy others work in this way and nothing happens?
I feel hot headed at the moment, so I might be missing something, feel free to correct me.
- jemmyw 3y agoI think in each of the cases you've described I would probably fall on the same side as you. The PyCon example I thought was particularly egregious because it could so easily have been myself making silly jokes about dongles. There's no way anyone should have lost their job over that, so actually, while the person who went public was in the wrong, the main fault must lie with the companies who can't take a step back and give their employees any room or compassion at all. This particular little drama is a bit more nuanced I think. First, the company behind the speaker involved is actually being supportive. Secondly the original post from the speaker wasn't terribly hand wavy or anything, but pretty measured "I didn't put forward a talk, they asked me, and then later pulled it without discussing the issue with me".
- orra 3y agoThere's no question about it: joking about dongles and forking, *for the innuendo", is immature. It also is unprofessional, and they were having the conversation loudly enough to be heard by women and others nearby. Yes, there are far worse cases of sexual harassment. Nonetheless, it helps create an environment where people, especially women, understandably feel uncomfortable. The question then is what to do about it. IMO in the PyCon case, an apology and training would probably have been the best outcome, because losing your job is quite severe. Of course, if after training a problem is repeated, or if there is just one case of much more overt harassment, then firing is probably the least bad action. The difficulty with social media is sometimes it is impossible to call out toxic behaviour without there being an overreaction. That's unfortunate, but it doesn't mean toxic behaviour should be unaccountable (or overpunished).
- jemmyw 3y agoI'm sorry, are woman totally unable to handle hearing immature jokes? I certainly hear them making enough of them, it's not just a male past time. Part of being a human is having a body and making stupid jokes about it. The pervasive blanket prudishness that elicits offence at anything body related is really out of hand.
- zozbot234 3y ago> The pervasive blanket prudishness that elicits offence at anything body related is really out of hand. It comes with the territory of living in a low-trust society (which the U.S. pretty much is nowadays). Joking around about topics that might raise offense is a luxury we can't necessarily afford in every circumstance.
- orra 3y agoIt's quite simple: save the sexual jokes for the pub with your friends, not the workplace. The massive gender imbalance in IT leads to skewed perceptions of what is acceptable in a professional environment. This in turn helps perpetuate gender imbalance. Simply, women do not want to work and get harassed. I'd rather have more women in programming, than men who think sexual harassment is okay in a professional enviroment.
- jemmyw 3y agoSure I agree with everything you say, except that the jokes made were not sexual harassment. Overhearing something you don't like between strangers you are not involved with is not harassment. This is treading very old ground, but a simple "keep it to yourselves" from the listener or the conference organiser is the total remonstration and "training" anyone required in that circumstance. The people making jokes were contrite, and all of us sometimes slightly lose our heads when among friends at events, even professional ones.
- DannyBee 3y ago"Overhearing something you don't like between strangers you are not involved with is not harassment" 1. It definitely can be (by legal, social, etc definitions), and it's very silly to claim otherwise in any form of generality. Like if I overhear you talking about what you want to do to my breasts or whatever, congrats, you've harassed me even if you didn't mean me to hear. I don't remember the particular jokes here enough to give a more particularized view, but your statement is pretty general. In any case, 2. To the degree it isn't harassment, it can also be considered creation of a hostile work environment (even at a conference), which is also actionable and has been for many decades (ie this is not some new recent thing). The most common form you will find is probably exactly this: people making inappropriate jokes loud enough for others to hear.
- lmm 3y ago> And in this case: what are all these code of conducts for if people can destroy others work in this way and nothing happens? In a "the purpose of a system is what it does" sense it's clear that they exist to make it easier to kick out people you don't like - especially people who don't share the PMC cultural background that's dominant in tech - without taking responsibility for your choice in doing so.