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This is basically how it has always been in Australia. Someone’s freedom to protest is not more important than someone else’s freedom to use that same space to

This is basically how it has always been in Australia. Someone’s freedom to protest is not more important than someone else’s freedom to use that same space to get to work, live their life, etc. Protests have always needed to be booked in advance and are essentially always approved (with police protection included for neo nazis etc). You seem to be describing the freedom of America (a right to a gun, but not a right to be free from the fear of getting shot) but it’s not like that everywhere, see even more extreme examples like the “guilty until proven innocent” case of libel in Australia. I’m not saying either way is better or worse, just that this is the status quo really for Australia.

wolverine876 3y ago
Protests in the US generally require similar arrangements.
defrost 3y ago
For others not of a Commonwealth country, UK + Australian ( + Canadian ?? ) Defamation Law is relatively unique in the assumption of "guilty until proven innocent" - although recent years have seen strong moves to reform this position. See (for example): [1] https://rabbitholemag.com/australia-is-uniquely-bad-for-defamation/ https://rabbitholemag.com/australia-is-uniquely-bad-for-defa... Worthy of note though is that otherwise > In many respects, Australia compares well with other liberal democracies. Australia’s Freedom Score (95 out of 100) is on par with or better than countries like the UK (93/100), New Zealand (99/100), Canada (98/100), Germany (94/100), France (89/100), and the US (83/100). The country regularly ranks high on freedom indexes and democracy indexes and all sorts of human rights and civil liberties metrics. [1] Australia is considered to have greater than 10% "more freedom" than the USofA by some third party rankings.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  Depends where, Quebec is closer to the US while English Canada is more like the UK. Comparison here for the curious. [1] [1] https://kellywarnerlaw.com/chart-differences-between-united-states-and-canadian-defamation-law https://kellywarnerlaw.com/chart-differences-between-united-...
- jruohonen 3y ago
  You should not look at comparative rankings between countries; you should look at trends. The best current empirical source is: https://www.v-dem.net/ https://www.v-dem.net/ Accordingly, Australia is declining, like many other countries, unfortunately.
  - defrost 3y ago
    > The best current empirical source is ... Is there any particular reason why > the V-Dem Institute at the Department of Political Science, University of Gothenburg, Sweden [...] With five Principal Investigators [...] etc. [1] is currently the best empirical source? I've been about for a few decades and I'm a fan of large helicopter views of global parameters, resource | energy use | trade movements | political trends | comparative intra country wealth distribution | etc. I can see it's a decent enough project, albeit influenced by both the University of Notre Dame and the Kellogg Institute, but I see no compelling reason to rank it as "the best" of it's kind and a few flags that suggest potential bias in viewpoint. > Accordingly, Australia is declining, like many other countries, unfortunately. Err... I did look through the V-Dem 2023 Democracy report (56 pages), read several parts at length and looked at the four (4) mentions of Australia and while I agree that many parts of the world are backsliding to what is described as 1985 global democracy levels ... there is no mention there that Australia is one of those parts sliding back and indeed is rated there as on the world's more democratic nations (#11 of 190+ countries) [1] https://www.v-dem.net/about/v-dem-project/ https://www.v-dem.net/about/v-dem-project/
    - jruohonen 3y ago
      > is currently the best empirical source? Yes: a lot of academic research on the topic. > I've been about for a few decades and I'm a fan of large helicopter views of > global parameters, resource | energy use | trade movements | political trends | > comparative intra country wealth distribution | etc. You can do that with V-Dem too. > I can see it's a decent enough project, albeit influenced by both the University of Notre Dame and the Kellogg Institute, but I see no compelling reason to rank it as "the best" of it's kind and a few flags that suggest potential bias in viewpoint. These are the same people; V-Dem was built upon the foundation done at the Kelogg Institute. Since then, V-Dem covers over ten universities and over two thousand academics. > Err... I did look through the V-Dem 2023 Democracy report (56 pages), read several parts at length and looked at the four (4) mentions of Australia and while I agree that many parts of the world are backsliding to what is described > as 1985 global democracy levels ... there is no mention there that Australia is one of those parts sliding back and indeed is rated there as on the world's more democratic nations (#11 of 190+ countries) I just briefly looked at the chart about liberal democracy rights; a slight downward trend from the late 2000s. You'd need to do a thorough analysis for a definite conclusion, of course.
Nursie 3y ago
> Someone’s freedom to protest is not more important than someone else’s freedom to use that same space to get to work, live their life, etc. Protests have always needed to be booked in advance and are essentially always approved (with police protection included for neo nazis etc). UK too, if you want to do something large-scale you negotiate with the police about when is going to work, and try to give them estimates of numbers etc. And at the small-scale end, you've never been allowed to (for instance) block a public path or block entrance to a business you disagreed with. In the small town I grew up in, in the UK, I remember the police intervening when a local animal rights activist blocked access to a cafe which had put ostrich or emu egg on the menu. She was fine to stand there with a sign and say her piece, but she was not allowed to either block the cafe entrance or the path outside. I don't like these developments, but the argument I see a lot at the moment that protest has always been and must be about disruption, seems off. Perhaps effective protest is about disruption, but we're not going to legalise (for example) shutting down of an airport by a handful of people if they claim to have a cause, because we may as well give up on having an airport at that point.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > we're not going to legalise (for example) shutting down of an airport by a handful of people if they claim to have a cause, because we may as well give up on having an airport at that point. But the UK has had airports and such protests, without the oppressive laws. It's hardly even a time of much protest or dangerous protest - compare the 1960s or 1970s. People were hijacking planes. Political freedom is not a threat; it's not only compatible with a functioning economy, it's the source of all the highest-functioning economies in human history.
  - Nursie 3y ago
    I agree very much that the new laws are awful. I'm just arguing against the people who are basically saying that protest is a) supposed to be disruptive and b) should not be prosecuted when it is. The worrying part of the new legislation in places like the UK is how it is being used to target people who are not shutting down critical infrastructure, who are not causing property damage etc etc.
runsonrum 3y ago
Americans aren't anymore afraid of getting shot as Australians are of getting bitten by a venomous creature
- aplummer 3y ago
  Well it’s the number 1 cause of death for children, I would be worried about the thing statistically most likely to kill me, but YMMV. Conversely, venomous creatures have killed approximately zero people in a hundred years.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Americans express opinions very different than yours. Gun violence is the number one concern in many elections now. Schools all now have mass-shooter drills and train students.

wolverine876 3y ago

Protests in the US generally require similar arrangements.

defrost 3y ago

For others not of a Commonwealth country, UK + Australian ( + Canadian ?? ) Defamation Law is relatively unique in the assumption of "guilty until proven innocent" - although recent years have seen strong moves to reform this position. See (for example): [1] https://rabbitholemag.com/australia-is-uniquely-bad-for-defamation/ https://rabbitholemag.com/australia-is-uniquely-bad-for-defa... Worthy of note though is that otherwise > In many respects, Australia compares well with other liberal democracies. Australia’s Freedom Score (95 out of 100) is on par with or better than countries like the UK (93/100), New Zealand (99/100), Canada (98/100), Germany (94/100), France (89/100), and the US (83/100). The country regularly ranks high on freedom indexes and democracy indexes and all sorts of human rights and civil liberties metrics. [1] Australia is considered to have greater than 10% "more freedom" than the USofA by some third party rankings.

arcticbull 3y ago
Depends where, Quebec is closer to the US while English Canada is more like the UK. Comparison here for the curious. [1] [1] https://kellywarnerlaw.com/chart-differences-between-united-states-and-canadian-defamation-law https://kellywarnerlaw.com/chart-differences-between-united-...
jruohonen 3y ago
You should not look at comparative rankings between countries; you should look at trends. The best current empirical source is: https://www.v-dem.net/ https://www.v-dem.net/ Accordingly, Australia is declining, like many other countries, unfortunately.
- defrost 3y ago
  > The best current empirical source is ... Is there any particular reason why > the V-Dem Institute at the Department of Political Science, University of Gothenburg, Sweden [...] With five Principal Investigators [...] etc. [1] is currently the best empirical source? I've been about for a few decades and I'm a fan of large helicopter views of global parameters, resource | energy use | trade movements | political trends | comparative intra country wealth distribution | etc. I can see it's a decent enough project, albeit influenced by both the University of Notre Dame and the Kellogg Institute, but I see no compelling reason to rank it as "the best" of it's kind and a few flags that suggest potential bias in viewpoint. > Accordingly, Australia is declining, like many other countries, unfortunately. Err... I did look through the V-Dem 2023 Democracy report (56 pages), read several parts at length and looked at the four (4) mentions of Australia and while I agree that many parts of the world are backsliding to what is described as 1985 global democracy levels ... there is no mention there that Australia is one of those parts sliding back and indeed is rated there as on the world's more democratic nations (#11 of 190+ countries) [1] https://www.v-dem.net/about/v-dem-project/ https://www.v-dem.net/about/v-dem-project/
  - jruohonen 3y ago
    > is currently the best empirical source? Yes: a lot of academic research on the topic. > I've been about for a few decades and I'm a fan of large helicopter views of > global parameters, resource | energy use | trade movements | political trends | > comparative intra country wealth distribution | etc. You can do that with V-Dem too. > I can see it's a decent enough project, albeit influenced by both the University of Notre Dame and the Kellogg Institute, but I see no compelling reason to rank it as "the best" of it's kind and a few flags that suggest potential bias in viewpoint. These are the same people; V-Dem was built upon the foundation done at the Kelogg Institute. Since then, V-Dem covers over ten universities and over two thousand academics. > Err... I did look through the V-Dem 2023 Democracy report (56 pages), read several parts at length and looked at the four (4) mentions of Australia and while I agree that many parts of the world are backsliding to what is described > as 1985 global democracy levels ... there is no mention there that Australia is one of those parts sliding back and indeed is rated there as on the world's more democratic nations (#11 of 190+ countries) I just briefly looked at the chart about liberal democracy rights; a slight downward trend from the late 2000s. You'd need to do a thorough analysis for a definite conclusion, of course.

Nursie 3y ago

> Someone’s freedom to protest is not more important than someone else’s freedom to use that same space to get to work, live their life, etc. Protests have always needed to be booked in advance and are essentially always approved (with police protection included for neo nazis etc). UK too, if you want to do something large-scale you negotiate with the police about when is going to work, and try to give them estimates of numbers etc. And at the small-scale end, you've never been allowed to (for instance) block a public path or block entrance to a business you disagreed with. In the small town I grew up in, in the UK, I remember the police intervening when a local animal rights activist blocked access to a cafe which had put ostrich or emu egg on the menu. She was fine to stand there with a sign and say her piece, but she was not allowed to either block the cafe entrance or the path outside. I don't like these developments, but the argument I see a lot at the moment that protest has always been and must be about disruption, seems off. Perhaps effective protest is about disruption, but we're not going to legalise (for example) shutting down of an airport by a handful of people if they claim to have a cause, because we may as well give up on having an airport at that point.

wolverine876 3y ago
> we're not going to legalise (for example) shutting down of an airport by a handful of people if they claim to have a cause, because we may as well give up on having an airport at that point. But the UK has had airports and such protests, without the oppressive laws. It's hardly even a time of much protest or dangerous protest - compare the 1960s or 1970s. People were hijacking planes. Political freedom is not a threat; it's not only compatible with a functioning economy, it's the source of all the highest-functioning economies in human history.
- Nursie 3y ago
  I agree very much that the new laws are awful. I'm just arguing against the people who are basically saying that protest is a) supposed to be disruptive and b) should not be prosecuted when it is. The worrying part of the new legislation in places like the UK is how it is being used to target people who are not shutting down critical infrastructure, who are not causing property damage etc etc.

runsonrum 3y ago

Americans aren't anymore afraid of getting shot as Australians are of getting bitten by a venomous creature

aplummer 3y ago
Well it’s the number 1 cause of death for children, I would be worried about the thing statistically most likely to kill me, but YMMV. Conversely, venomous creatures have killed approximately zero people in a hundred years.
wolverine876 3y ago
Americans express opinions very different than yours. Gun violence is the number one concern in many elections now. Schools all now have mass-shooter drills and train students.