4 ms·

> (In this case it's to protect Nikon's pricing structure between different continents.) Ah ha - so what seems to be different in this case is that he's sellin

by RajT88 3y ago

> (In this case it's to protect Nikon's pricing structure between different continents.) Ah ha - so what seems to be different in this case is that he's selling products from the US, shipping to the EU. In the US, this is already settled law. https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/thai-student-protected-by-first-sale-supreme-court-rules/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/03/thai-student-pro... Same concern. Not sure how they're allowed to do this in the EU, but I assume it's to do with them not having precedent, or some EU regulation which disallows it somehow.

shagie 3y ago
There is such a regulation and it is very settled law. From 1998 https://cms-lawnow.com/en/ealerts/1998/10/the-ecj-has-delivered-a-landmark-ruling-which-allows-trade-mark-owners-to-block-the-sale-of-goods-bearing-their-trademarks-within-the-eu-where-the https://cms-lawnow.com/en/ealerts/1998/10/the-ecj-has-delive... > The ECJ has delivered a landmark ruling which effectively allows trade mark owners to block the sale of goods bearing their trademarks within the EU, where the goods have been obtained on the so-called 'grey market' from suppliers outside the EU. The ruling means that the holder of a trade mark in the UK, or other EU country, can prevent the sale of parallel-imported goods from outside the EU even though such goods have been legitimately sold abroad in the first place. This means, in practice, that a trade mark holder can prevent retailers from obtaining goods bearing its trade mark cheaply from markets such as Asia or the US and selling them at a discount within Europe without its authorisation. And more recently (2022): https://trademarkblog.kluweriplaw.com/2022/10/21/court-of-justice-allows-destroying-genuine-grey-market-goods-when-rights-arent-exhausted/ https://trademarkblog.kluweriplaw.com/2022/10/21/court-of-ju... > The court may order that infringing goods be removed from the market, returned to the rightful owner, or destroyed. When making a decision, the courts consider the gravity of the infringement as well as the interests of third parties. Also, Article 10(1) of Directive 2004/48 (Enforcement Directive) states that a judge may order “destruction” of goods to enforce intellectual property rights.
- Beldin 3y ago
  Just to add: the EU mandates certain standards that other territories do not necessarily impose. For example: turn signals on cars: in the EU, they must be separate from brake lights and colored yellow or orange. That is: (1) vendors may abide by different standards elsewhere, and (2) implementation of those different standards may cause incompatibility (eg. US rear lights may not be compatible with EU models). While that might not completely justify such rules in all cases, they're not always fully anti-consumer either.
  - NoRelToEmber 3y ago
    But if a product does not comply with EU standards, it is illegal to sell/import/use it in the EU regardless of if the trademark owner allows its sale - it's not up to them. So yes, deputizing trademark owners to police imports, on the off chance that maybe sometimes their decisions will align with other consumer-protection laws, is always fully anti-consumer.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - hef19898 3y ago
    There is a whole industry around the import of US cars that are not directly sold in the EU. You can even register them with the US rear lights, in Germany. The absence of an EU CoC makes this a tack costly and lengthy, but it is absolutely possible. Coming back to the video, I think it is more an issue around Nikon US, eBay US and the seller. I don't think Nikon, or any other Japanese camera brand, are blocking international resale of used gear on eBay in general, there are way to many private and commercial sellers in Japan shipping through eBay to the US and the EU for thatbto be true. Also, with all the account blocking stories and copy right take downs being discussed on HN basically every day, why do we all assume it is Nikon's "fault"? I mean eBay is a party in this, too.
    - lloeki 3y ago
      > There is a whole industry around the import of US cars that are not directly sold in the EU Same in France. The requirement when buying a foreign car is that it must get vetted by the DRIRE (ex Mines), which might be easy (e.g a EU car typically already has a registered entry because vehicles are extremely similar to identical) or hard (e.g US cars being subject to different regulations), but if one vehicle of a specific type went through the process it now has an entry as well and it's a matter of checking that the ingress vehicle matches the previous entry, fast tracking the process. IIRC there are provisions for historical cars (véhicules de collection, i.e > 30yo) that are allowed to not be compliant with current regulations as long as they're stock (except for some bits, e.g IIRC tyres must be upgraded to radial tyres to be road-worthy). Still lengthy and costly. (caveat: it's been a long time since I got interested in the process, things may have changed)
- ricardobeat 3y ago
  Is eBay considered a retailer though? Last time I used these platforms, it was still a private sale between two individuals.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Yeah, but the example is about exports from the US, not about imports into the EU.
    - ricardobeat 3y ago
      So you’re saying the regulation mentioned by the parent comment about EU imports is not the reason this happened?
      - hef19898 3y ago
        Propably not, you can get Nikon gear from Japan into the EU all day long.
- hef19898 3y ago
  I read it that this regulation only applies to retailers (as in commercial sellers) and is there to protect liscenced sellers and OEMs from price dumping through grey imports. Fair enough, as the regulations around market access, the various anti-trust laws, are pretty severe as well. They make exclusivity pretty hard, for both OEMs and retailers, and fines can be stiff. Nowhere does it mention the sale of used gear, or the sale by private partied. Which lines up with my limited experience around buying used gear online, especially eBay, from outside the EU. I never tried to export so.
  - londons_explore 3y ago
    I don't think the law really differentiates between used and new goods, nor big vs small. It's true that these rules are rarely enforced about you selling an old game to your mate in a bar... But in principle I think any IP rights holders of IP within that game could attempt to block such a sale.
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Software liscenses can be re-sold in the EU, but don't ask for specifics. And again, IANAL, but those import restrictions on grey imports make sense for protecting the offical distribution channels for new goods, e.g. because of warranties and setting sales prices. Used goods don't have warranties, beyond some basic ones, and OEMs usually don't care about those.

by RajT88 3y ago

shagie 3y ago

There is such a regulation and it is very settled law. From 1998 https://cms-lawnow.com/en/ealerts/1998/10/the-ecj-has-delivered-a-landmark-ruling-which-allows-trade-mark-owners-to-block-the-sale-of-goods-bearing-their-trademarks-within-the-eu-where-the https://cms-lawnow.com/en/ealerts/1998/10/the-ecj-has-delive... > The ECJ has delivered a landmark ruling which effectively allows trade mark owners to block the sale of goods bearing their trademarks within the EU, where the goods have been obtained on the so-called 'grey market' from suppliers outside the EU. The ruling means that the holder of a trade mark in the UK, or other EU country, can prevent the sale of parallel-imported goods from outside the EU even though such goods have been legitimately sold abroad in the first place. This means, in practice, that a trade mark holder can prevent retailers from obtaining goods bearing its trade mark cheaply from markets such as Asia or the US and selling them at a discount within Europe without its authorisation. And more recently (2022): https://trademarkblog.kluweriplaw.com/2022/10/21/court-of-justice-allows-destroying-genuine-grey-market-goods-when-rights-arent-exhausted/ https://trademarkblog.kluweriplaw.com/2022/10/21/court-of-ju... > The court may order that infringing goods be removed from the market, returned to the rightful owner, or destroyed. When making a decision, the courts consider the gravity of the infringement as well as the interests of third parties. Also, Article 10(1) of Directive 2004/48 (Enforcement Directive) states that a judge may order “destruction” of goods to enforce intellectual property rights.

Beldin 3y ago
Just to add: the EU mandates certain standards that other territories do not necessarily impose. For example: turn signals on cars: in the EU, they must be separate from brake lights and colored yellow or orange. That is: (1) vendors may abide by different standards elsewhere, and (2) implementation of those different standards may cause incompatibility (eg. US rear lights may not be compatible with EU models). While that might not completely justify such rules in all cases, they're not always fully anti-consumer either.
- NoRelToEmber 3y ago
  But if a product does not comply with EU standards, it is illegal to sell/import/use it in the EU regardless of if the trademark owner allows its sale - it's not up to them. So yes, deputizing trademark owners to police imports, on the off chance that maybe sometimes their decisions will align with other consumer-protection laws, is always fully anti-consumer.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- hef19898 3y ago
  There is a whole industry around the import of US cars that are not directly sold in the EU. You can even register them with the US rear lights, in Germany. The absence of an EU CoC makes this a tack costly and lengthy, but it is absolutely possible. Coming back to the video, I think it is more an issue around Nikon US, eBay US and the seller. I don't think Nikon, or any other Japanese camera brand, are blocking international resale of used gear on eBay in general, there are way to many private and commercial sellers in Japan shipping through eBay to the US and the EU for thatbto be true. Also, with all the account blocking stories and copy right take downs being discussed on HN basically every day, why do we all assume it is Nikon's "fault"? I mean eBay is a party in this, too.
  - lloeki 3y ago
    > There is a whole industry around the import of US cars that are not directly sold in the EU Same in France. The requirement when buying a foreign car is that it must get vetted by the DRIRE (ex Mines), which might be easy (e.g a EU car typically already has a registered entry because vehicles are extremely similar to identical) or hard (e.g US cars being subject to different regulations), but if one vehicle of a specific type went through the process it now has an entry as well and it's a matter of checking that the ingress vehicle matches the previous entry, fast tracking the process. IIRC there are provisions for historical cars (véhicules de collection, i.e > 30yo) that are allowed to not be compliant with current regulations as long as they're stock (except for some bits, e.g IIRC tyres must be upgraded to radial tyres to be road-worthy). Still lengthy and costly. (caveat: it's been a long time since I got interested in the process, things may have changed)
ricardobeat 3y ago
Is eBay considered a retailer though? Last time I used these platforms, it was still a private sale between two individuals.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Yeah, but the example is about exports from the US, not about imports into the EU.
  - ricardobeat 3y ago
    So you’re saying the regulation mentioned by the parent comment about EU imports is not the reason this happened?
    - hef19898 3y ago
      Propably not, you can get Nikon gear from Japan into the EU all day long.
hef19898 3y ago
I read it that this regulation only applies to retailers (as in commercial sellers) and is there to protect liscenced sellers and OEMs from price dumping through grey imports. Fair enough, as the regulations around market access, the various anti-trust laws, are pretty severe as well. They make exclusivity pretty hard, for both OEMs and retailers, and fines can be stiff. Nowhere does it mention the sale of used gear, or the sale by private partied. Which lines up with my limited experience around buying used gear online, especially eBay, from outside the EU. I never tried to export so.
- londons_explore 3y ago
  I don't think the law really differentiates between used and new goods, nor big vs small. It's true that these rules are rarely enforced about you selling an old game to your mate in a bar... But in principle I think any IP rights holders of IP within that game could attempt to block such a sale.
  - hef19898 3y ago
    Software liscenses can be re-sold in the EU, but don't ask for specifics. And again, IANAL, but those import restrictions on grey imports make sense for protecting the offical distribution channels for new goods, e.g. because of warranties and setting sales prices. Used goods don't have warranties, beyond some basic ones, and OEMs usually don't care about those.