6 ms·

I send money across borders to friends an organizations via blockchain. And millions of other people do, especially in countries with volatile financial systems

by vvpan 3y ago

I send money across borders to friends an organizations via blockchain. And millions of other people do, especially in countries with volatile financial systems. I much prefer crypto to anything else in this case. Hearing "no legitimate use case" arguments is awfully annoying when you get objective use from the thing being criticized.

iLoveOncall 3y ago
I send money across borders without blockchain. Without fees. Without having to wait 2 weeks for the transaction to be confirmed.
- shagymoe 3y ago
  Really? How? I needed to transfer money from the sale of a property in Europe and the fees + currency conversion was over $1000.
  - topranks 3y ago
    I’d look at wise.com
  - tomr75 3y ago
    bank --> CEX (binance) --> bank (or OTC with a trading desk) binance has about 10-20 basis points fees how much did you pay using tradfi? not just fees but the forex spread
  - mattdesl 3y ago
    Depends on the sending and receiving country, and what the relationship is between the two banks, and what the amount is being transferred. A lot of people have a limited set of experiences, such as sending wires or Wise payments to/from a specific country, and it works well for them, without realizing there is an entire world of other scenarios outside of this scope where it is not as well suited.
- bhaak 3y ago
  Found the SEPA user.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> Hearing "no legitimate use case" arguments is awfully annoying when you get objective use from the thing being criticized Better phrasing would be niche legitimate use cases not worth supporting, at least not domestically, if you’re America, the EU, China, India or Japan.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- mattdesl 3y ago
  > not worth supporting Why not? Having open source protocols that compete with PayPal and VISA and aren’t funded and controlled by central states can be a positive thing.
  - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
    > Why not? Having open source protocols that compete with PayPal and VISA and aren’t funded and controlled by central states can be a positive thing Sure. That isn't what crypto has become. After ten years, it's fair to call it given the amount of fraud, dishonesty and resource misallocation. Again, not saying ban it. Just tax it, regulate it closely, and keep an eye on the folks doing it to make sure they're focussing on doing it abroad.
    - mattdesl 3y ago
      It’s all relative. The tech is still in its infancy, perhaps like AI was a few decades ago. The current landscape of PoS, applied ZKP, rollup sequencers, stablecoins, and smart contracts are all significant improvements on what existed 10 years ago, and much more practical.
      - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
        > current landscape of PoS, applied ZKP, rollup sequencers, stablecoins, and smart contracts are all significant improvements on what existed 10 years ago, and much more practical. To what practical end? I think exploration should continue. But in the academic, not product, space. Crypto has the potential to be toxic. Licensing regimes for potentially-toxic products is highly precedented.
phailhaus 3y ago
> I send money across borders to friends an organizations via blockchain. And that transaction is completely public, and can be traced back to both of you.
- tomr75 3y ago
  can send private transactions on ZK rollups https://railgun.org/ https://railgun.org/ https://app.umbra.cash/ https://app.umbra.cash/ https://spillways.finance/ https://spillways.finance/ https://mystiko.network/ https://mystiko.network/ https://cyclone.xyz/ https://cyclone.xyz/ https://www.privacypools.com/ https://www.privacypools.com/
  - philipwhiuk 3y ago
    And how do you get the money out. At the end of the days there's a magic internet money to real money transaction and that will get hit with KYC and suddenly the entire house of cards collapses. Or you never get the money out, but suddenly have a bunch of stuff and you get hit with taxes you can't pay because you didn't take the money out. Countries aren't just going to let people evade AML because it finances stuff much worse than Johnny buying weed from a guy in Mexico, it finances terrorism and it's infinitely easier to follow the money than anything else. Anything that gets big will get sued to hell and it's ridiculous to think otherwise.
    - dlubarov 3y ago
      Exchanges can see the assets I move through on-ramps and off-ramps, but (in the case of Zcash etc) they can't see all the on-chain activity in between, which is generally the more interesting part.
      - philipwhiuk 3y ago
        As soon as this gets mass adoption it will be regulated sufficiently that it will either be illegal to use or possible to determine who sent who what.
lern_too_spel 3y ago
Your use-case is breaking money transfer laws. Just like every other use-case, it is far less expensive to break money transfer laws with a centralized ledger. When you make blockchain money transfer comply with regulations, it becomes more expensive than legal money transfer using centralized ledger. When regulation kicks in (and it will — no government wants its citizens to be fleeced by rogue nations like DPRK and Russia), are there really any legitimate use-cases?
- j0hnyl 3y ago
  You're assuming it breaks laws, but it doesn't have to, it just makes it easier to do something that's painful to do either by design or due to shitty economic circumstances. In some countries banks pop-up and fold a dime a dozen week to week. Does that mean someone shouldn't be able to send funds to their relatives in a fucked up country?
  - lern_too_spel 3y ago
    > You're assuming it breaks laws, but it doesn't have to, it just makes it easier to do something that's painful to do either by design or due to shitty economic circumstances Even if your sending end is regulated, at the other end, there has to be a regulated bank. If not, the person who is receiving the "money" could be breaking their country's laws. Cryptocurrencies don't magically change that. Otherwise, PayPal or Venmo could allow accounts to be created for those people in US dollars and do the job even more inexpensively.
    - X6S1x6Okd1st 3y ago
      > Even if your sending end is regulated, at the other end, there has to be a regulated bank. Are you referring to some specific regulation here?
      - lern_too_spel 3y ago
        The same regulations that mean you can't cheaply Venmo the person on the other end instead. If Venmo has to follow the law, cryptocurrencies have to follow the law as well. Being your own bank makes you liable to the same regulatory penalties that Venmo has to worry about.
simonw 3y ago
Which countries?
- mattdesl 3y ago
  Choose almost any two countries in the world that don’t share the same union. eg: From GBP to CAD with Wise, transfer cost is > $5 (sometimes much more) and takes multiple days; compare with USDC on a rollup which is near-instant and < $0.50 regardless of the transaction amount.
  - retornam 3y ago
    Wise is near-instant it doesn't take multiple days. Even Western Union has money in minutes to over 200 countries [1]. Almost all delayed transactions are due to fraud. The delay is often implemented to protect the sender from losing funds. How does crypto handle fraud? [1] https://www.westernunion.com/us/en/restrictions-money-in-minutes.html https://www.westernunion.com/us/en/restrictions-money-in-min...
    - mattdesl 3y ago
      My numbers are sourced from Wise’s own website. 1K GBP to CAD has a £5.02 fee and takes two days. > How does crypto handle fraud? Not every transactional system needs to adhere to the same set of antiquated and arduous AML checks and balances; which often break (either by allowing fraud to occur or incorrectly flagging and delaying valid transactions). For comparison, Cash App has no dispute mechanism: https://cash.app/help/us/en-us/6501-sent-money-to-the-wrong-account#:~:text=Cash%20App%20can't%20cancel,your%20Cash%20App%20home%20screen https://cash.app/help/us/en-us/6501-sent-money-to-the-wrong-...
      - retornam 3y ago
        Link, please? I ask because I have used Wise multiple times over many years and haven't had a transaction take more than 5 minutes. I'm confident I'm not the exception. Cash App is US only and thus doesn't apply to your initial comment. Let's stay on topic please. Thank you.
X6S1x6Okd1st 3y ago
> Hearing "no legitimate use case" arguments is awfully annoying when you get objective use from the thing being criticized. What part of the article or Molly White's coverage are you referring to?

by vvpan 3y ago

iLoveOncall 3y ago

I send money across borders without blockchain. Without fees. Without having to wait 2 weeks for the transaction to be confirmed.

shagymoe 3y ago
Really? How? I needed to transfer money from the sale of a property in Europe and the fees + currency conversion was over $1000.
- topranks 3y ago
  I’d look at wise.com
- tomr75 3y ago
  bank --> CEX (binance) --> bank (or OTC with a trading desk) binance has about 10-20 basis points fees how much did you pay using tradfi? not just fees but the forex spread
- mattdesl 3y ago
  Depends on the sending and receiving country, and what the relationship is between the two banks, and what the amount is being transferred. A lot of people have a limited set of experiences, such as sending wires or Wise payments to/from a specific country, and it works well for them, without realizing there is an entire world of other scenarios outside of this scope where it is not as well suited.
bhaak 3y ago
Found the SEPA user.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> Hearing "no legitimate use case" arguments is awfully annoying when you get objective use from the thing being criticized Better phrasing would be niche legitimate use cases not worth supporting, at least not domestically, if you’re America, the EU, China, India or Japan.

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
mattdesl 3y ago
> not worth supporting Why not? Having open source protocols that compete with PayPal and VISA and aren’t funded and controlled by central states can be a positive thing.
- JumpCrisscross 3y ago
  > Why not? Having open source protocols that compete with PayPal and VISA and aren’t funded and controlled by central states can be a positive thing Sure. That isn't what crypto has become. After ten years, it's fair to call it given the amount of fraud, dishonesty and resource misallocation. Again, not saying ban it. Just tax it, regulate it closely, and keep an eye on the folks doing it to make sure they're focussing on doing it abroad.
  - mattdesl 3y ago
    It’s all relative. The tech is still in its infancy, perhaps like AI was a few decades ago. The current landscape of PoS, applied ZKP, rollup sequencers, stablecoins, and smart contracts are all significant improvements on what existed 10 years ago, and much more practical.
    - JumpCrisscross 3y ago
      > current landscape of PoS, applied ZKP, rollup sequencers, stablecoins, and smart contracts are all significant improvements on what existed 10 years ago, and much more practical. To what practical end? I think exploration should continue. But in the academic, not product, space. Crypto has the potential to be toxic. Licensing regimes for potentially-toxic products is highly precedented.

phailhaus 3y ago

> I send money across borders to friends an organizations via blockchain. And that transaction is completely public, and can be traced back to both of you.

tomr75 3y ago
can send private transactions on ZK rollups https://railgun.org/ https://railgun.org/ https://app.umbra.cash/ https://app.umbra.cash/ https://spillways.finance/ https://spillways.finance/ https://mystiko.network/ https://mystiko.network/ https://cyclone.xyz/ https://cyclone.xyz/ https://www.privacypools.com/ https://www.privacypools.com/
- philipwhiuk 3y ago
  And how do you get the money out. At the end of the days there's a magic internet money to real money transaction and that will get hit with KYC and suddenly the entire house of cards collapses. Or you never get the money out, but suddenly have a bunch of stuff and you get hit with taxes you can't pay because you didn't take the money out. Countries aren't just going to let people evade AML because it finances stuff much worse than Johnny buying weed from a guy in Mexico, it finances terrorism and it's infinitely easier to follow the money than anything else. Anything that gets big will get sued to hell and it's ridiculous to think otherwise.
  - dlubarov 3y ago
    Exchanges can see the assets I move through on-ramps and off-ramps, but (in the case of Zcash etc) they can't see all the on-chain activity in between, which is generally the more interesting part.
    - philipwhiuk 3y ago
      As soon as this gets mass adoption it will be regulated sufficiently that it will either be illegal to use or possible to determine who sent who what.

lern_too_spel 3y ago

Your use-case is breaking money transfer laws. Just like every other use-case, it is far less expensive to break money transfer laws with a centralized ledger. When you make blockchain money transfer comply with regulations, it becomes more expensive than legal money transfer using centralized ledger. When regulation kicks in (and it will — no government wants its citizens to be fleeced by rogue nations like DPRK and Russia), are there really any legitimate use-cases?

j0hnyl 3y ago
You're assuming it breaks laws, but it doesn't have to, it just makes it easier to do something that's painful to do either by design or due to shitty economic circumstances. In some countries banks pop-up and fold a dime a dozen week to week. Does that mean someone shouldn't be able to send funds to their relatives in a fucked up country?
- lern_too_spel 3y ago
  > You're assuming it breaks laws, but it doesn't have to, it just makes it easier to do something that's painful to do either by design or due to shitty economic circumstances Even if your sending end is regulated, at the other end, there has to be a regulated bank. If not, the person who is receiving the "money" could be breaking their country's laws. Cryptocurrencies don't magically change that. Otherwise, PayPal or Venmo could allow accounts to be created for those people in US dollars and do the job even more inexpensively.
  - X6S1x6Okd1st 3y ago
    > Even if your sending end is regulated, at the other end, there has to be a regulated bank. Are you referring to some specific regulation here?
    - lern_too_spel 3y ago
      The same regulations that mean you can't cheaply Venmo the person on the other end instead. If Venmo has to follow the law, cryptocurrencies have to follow the law as well. Being your own bank makes you liable to the same regulatory penalties that Venmo has to worry about.

simonw 3y ago

Which countries?

mattdesl 3y ago
Choose almost any two countries in the world that don’t share the same union. eg: From GBP to CAD with Wise, transfer cost is > $5 (sometimes much more) and takes multiple days; compare with USDC on a rollup which is near-instant and < $0.50 regardless of the transaction amount.
- retornam 3y ago
  Wise is near-instant it doesn't take multiple days. Even Western Union has money in minutes to over 200 countries [1]. Almost all delayed transactions are due to fraud. The delay is often implemented to protect the sender from losing funds. How does crypto handle fraud? [1] https://www.westernunion.com/us/en/restrictions-money-in-minutes.html https://www.westernunion.com/us/en/restrictions-money-in-min...
  - mattdesl 3y ago
    My numbers are sourced from Wise’s own website. 1K GBP to CAD has a £5.02 fee and takes two days. > How does crypto handle fraud? Not every transactional system needs to adhere to the same set of antiquated and arduous AML checks and balances; which often break (either by allowing fraud to occur or incorrectly flagging and delaying valid transactions). For comparison, Cash App has no dispute mechanism: https://cash.app/help/us/en-us/6501-sent-money-to-the-wrong-account#:~:text=Cash%20App%20can't%20cancel,your%20Cash%20App%20home%20screen https://cash.app/help/us/en-us/6501-sent-money-to-the-wrong-...
    - retornam 3y ago
      Link, please? I ask because I have used Wise multiple times over many years and haven't had a transaction take more than 5 minutes. I'm confident I'm not the exception. Cash App is US only and thus doesn't apply to your initial comment. Let's stay on topic please. Thank you.

X6S1x6Okd1st 3y ago

> Hearing "no legitimate use case" arguments is awfully annoying when you get objective use from the thing being criticized. What part of the article or Molly White's coverage are you referring to?