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It's kind of funny to hear Russians argue how sanctions utterly failed, they are hurting the West, do not hurt Russia, on the opposite only strengthen it ... T

It's kind of funny to hear Russians argue how sanctions utterly failed, they are hurting the West, do not hurt Russia, on the opposite only strengthen it ... There's a saying "never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake", yet it seems Russians do exactly that again and again?

yogthos 3y ago
This isn't the Russians arguing, this is mainstream western pres saying this.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  Hand-picked to fit your agenda. No need to link the sources which disagree, right? Also, this link selection is provided by a Russian, so the point still stands.
  - yogthos 3y ago
    The only person with an agenda here is the one who keep using ad hominem attacks instead of providing any actual arguments. The reality is that the economic war has gone on for nearly two years now, and so far there is no sign of Russian economy collapsing. The sources I've provided come from mainstream western publications which are openly hostile to Russia, and they explain in black and white why the economic war has failed. I guess some people just aren't capable of engaging with reality.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      A person without an agenda would surely link also links which provide a different POV: * https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/12/01/ukraine-russia-sanctions-economy-war-putin-embargo-technology-financial-energy/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/12/01/ukraine-russia-sanction... * https://www.intereconomics.eu/contents/year/2023/number/1/article/why-sanctions-against-russia-work.html https://www.intereconomics.eu/contents/year/2023/number/1/ar... * https://www.csis.org/analysis/russia-sanctions-one-year https://www.csis.org/analysis/russia-sanctions-one-year Nobody claims the sanctions are perfect. Sometimes there are holes which need to be plugged. There are some other areas which should be sanctioned. The West should of course work on making the sanctions harder hitting.
      - yogthos 3y ago
        It's pretty weird to claim that providing articles with the information that supports the points I'm making is an agenda. The problem with the claims in the articles you linked make is that they're at odds with the reality we're currently observing. There has been no evidence that Russia's war in Ukraine has been negatively impacted by the sanctions, and the predictions we hear every month that Russia is going to run out of weapons are not coming true either. Meanwhile, economy in Russia appears to be doing just fine because the void that western companies left is being filled by companies from China and India. The whole premise of your argument seems to be based on the notion that countries can't have an economy that's independent from the west. This is an absurd idea given that the west accounts for only 20% of world's population. Majority of the world sharply disagrees with the west as studies commissioned by EU and US clearly show: https://ecfr.eu/publication/united-west-divided-from-the-rest-global-public-opinion-one-year-into-russias-war-on-ukraine/ https://ecfr.eu/publication/united-west-divided-from-the-res... https://usrussiaaccord.org/acura-viewpoint-krishen-mehta-the-ukraine-war-viewed-from-the-global-south/ https://usrussiaaccord.org/acura-viewpoint-krishen-mehta-the... And here's how NYT puts it: > A year on, it’s becoming clearer: While the West’s core coalition remains remarkably solid, it never convinced the rest of the world to isolate Russia. https://archive.is/2023.02.23-211202/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/23/world/russia-ukraine-geopolitics.html https://archive.is/2023.02.23-211202/https://www.nytimes.com... What ultimately matters is the relative damage the sanctions are causing to Russia and Europe. There is clear evidence that there has been sever economic impact on Europe as a result of the sanctions, and there is no evidence that there's a greater crisis in Russia than in Europe right now. It's also important to note that Russia has already made it through two major crises in the 90s and in 2014 while Europe has not experienced anything similar in recent history. What remains to be seen is whether Europe or Russia will be able to handle the decoupling better.
        The_Colonel 3y ago
        > It's pretty weird to claim that providing articles with the information that supports the points I'm making is an agenda. The problem is that you're presenting the problem as very one sided while it's clearly contested at minimum. This + the fact you're Russian is making it easy to guess whose agenda you're pushing. > There has been no evidence that Russia's war in Ukraine has been negatively impacted by the sanctions It's difficult to get neutral data. We have data from Kremlin, but it would be dumb to take their word as true. An unconvential data measuring emissions suggest that Russian industry is in decline: https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/russias-economy-suffering-industrial-decline-024945565.html https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/russias-economy-suffering-... > This is an absurd idea given that the west accounts for only 20% of world's population I guess you're intentionally "forgetting" that the west amounts to 50% of world's economy. Being sanctioned by half the world's economy has likely negative consequences. > and there is no evidence that there's a greater crisis in Russia than in Europe right now. We have only little evidence unfortunately, since as stated above, we simply lack reliable data. There are a few tidbits which might suggest that the economic picture is not that rosy - the emission study above, the Russian state deficits, dropping oil/gas revenues and even Putin admitting that sanctions can hurt Russian economy. But to repeat myself, I'm ready to admit that the sanctions regime is not perfect. It's a reminder to work harder on new sanctions and to plug holes.

yogthos 3y ago

This isn't the Russians arguing, this is mainstream western pres saying this.

The_Colonel 3y ago
Hand-picked to fit your agenda. No need to link the sources which disagree, right? Also, this link selection is provided by a Russian, so the point still stands.
- yogthos 3y ago
  The only person with an agenda here is the one who keep using ad hominem attacks instead of providing any actual arguments. The reality is that the economic war has gone on for nearly two years now, and so far there is no sign of Russian economy collapsing. The sources I've provided come from mainstream western publications which are openly hostile to Russia, and they explain in black and white why the economic war has failed. I guess some people just aren't capable of engaging with reality.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    A person without an agenda would surely link also links which provide a different POV: * https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/12/01/ukraine-russia-sanctions-economy-war-putin-embargo-technology-financial-energy/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/12/01/ukraine-russia-sanction... * https://www.intereconomics.eu/contents/year/2023/number/1/article/why-sanctions-against-russia-work.html https://www.intereconomics.eu/contents/year/2023/number/1/ar... * https://www.csis.org/analysis/russia-sanctions-one-year https://www.csis.org/analysis/russia-sanctions-one-year Nobody claims the sanctions are perfect. Sometimes there are holes which need to be plugged. There are some other areas which should be sanctioned. The West should of course work on making the sanctions harder hitting.
    - yogthos 3y ago
      It's pretty weird to claim that providing articles with the information that supports the points I'm making is an agenda. The problem with the claims in the articles you linked make is that they're at odds with the reality we're currently observing. There has been no evidence that Russia's war in Ukraine has been negatively impacted by the sanctions, and the predictions we hear every month that Russia is going to run out of weapons are not coming true either. Meanwhile, economy in Russia appears to be doing just fine because the void that western companies left is being filled by companies from China and India. The whole premise of your argument seems to be based on the notion that countries can't have an economy that's independent from the west. This is an absurd idea given that the west accounts for only 20% of world's population. Majority of the world sharply disagrees with the west as studies commissioned by EU and US clearly show: https://ecfr.eu/publication/united-west-divided-from-the-rest-global-public-opinion-one-year-into-russias-war-on-ukraine/ https://ecfr.eu/publication/united-west-divided-from-the-res... https://usrussiaaccord.org/acura-viewpoint-krishen-mehta-the-ukraine-war-viewed-from-the-global-south/ https://usrussiaaccord.org/acura-viewpoint-krishen-mehta-the... And here's how NYT puts it: > A year on, it’s becoming clearer: While the West’s core coalition remains remarkably solid, it never convinced the rest of the world to isolate Russia. https://archive.is/2023.02.23-211202/https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/02/23/world/russia-ukraine-geopolitics.html https://archive.is/2023.02.23-211202/https://www.nytimes.com... What ultimately matters is the relative damage the sanctions are causing to Russia and Europe. There is clear evidence that there has been sever economic impact on Europe as a result of the sanctions, and there is no evidence that there's a greater crisis in Russia than in Europe right now. It's also important to note that Russia has already made it through two major crises in the 90s and in 2014 while Europe has not experienced anything similar in recent history. What remains to be seen is whether Europe or Russia will be able to handle the decoupling better.
      - The_Colonel 3y ago
        > It's pretty weird to claim that providing articles with the information that supports the points I'm making is an agenda. The problem is that you're presenting the problem as very one sided while it's clearly contested at minimum. This + the fact you're Russian is making it easy to guess whose agenda you're pushing. > There has been no evidence that Russia's war in Ukraine has been negatively impacted by the sanctions It's difficult to get neutral data. We have data from Kremlin, but it would be dumb to take their word as true. An unconvential data measuring emissions suggest that Russian industry is in decline: https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/russias-economy-suffering-industrial-decline-024945565.html https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/russias-economy-suffering-... > This is an absurd idea given that the west accounts for only 20% of world's population I guess you're intentionally "forgetting" that the west amounts to 50% of world's economy. Being sanctioned by half the world's economy has likely negative consequences. > and there is no evidence that there's a greater crisis in Russia than in Europe right now. We have only little evidence unfortunately, since as stated above, we simply lack reliable data. There are a few tidbits which might suggest that the economic picture is not that rosy - the emission study above, the Russian state deficits, dropping oil/gas revenues and even Putin admitting that sanctions can hurt Russian economy. But to repeat myself, I'm ready to admit that the sanctions regime is not perfect. It's a reminder to work harder on new sanctions and to plug holes.