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We could discuss the 2014 events for hours and in any case the shelling has been going from both directions. But there's one clear fact - the war in Donbas was

We could discuss the 2014 events for hours and in any case the shelling has been going from both directions. But there's one clear fact - the war in Donbas was calming down in intensity in the years preceding 2022. In the three years 2019-2021, 78 civilians died in total, mostly from old unexploded mines. There was absolutely no "need" to make it a full scale war and ramp up the number to tens of thousands civilians dead.

ajsnigrutin 3y ago
Ukraine was preparing a war to take back donbas, and there was no "calming down". The problem is, that the media changed their stories after the start of war. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/osce-reports-surge-number-explosions-east-ukraine-2022-02-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/osce-reports-surge-numb... > MOSCOW, Feb 19 (Reuters) - Two regions in eastern Ukraine where government and separatist forces have been fighting since 2014 were hit by more than 1,400 explosions on Friday, monitors for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) said, pointing to a surge in shelling. 1400 "explosions" in one day are far away from "calm" to me. This was just before russia entered the war. On the other hand, eu/nato was training ukranian soldiers since 2015.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  > Ukraine was preparing a war to take back donbas It's sad that there's absolutely zero evidence of that except for Kremlin's justification for its own invasion. Isn't this excuse as old as war? "we had to invade, otherwise they would invade us". > This was just before russia entered the war. Well, exactly. Russia was looking for casus beli. There were reports of increased separatist shelling, they likely wanted to provoke Ukraine into moving first, very similar playbook to 2008 Georgian war.
  - aziaziazi 3y ago
    > there's absolutely zero evidence of that OP linked a Reuters post citing OSCE numbers. This organisation includes most European countries, US and Russia among others. If we can’t listen to est neither to west, who should we listen ? You, my Colonel ?
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      Well, have you read the article? It just states that the intensity of shelling intensified, which is not very surprising 5 days before the invasion? The article did not mention who intensified the shelling in the first place, but states that the only civilian casualty happened on the Kyiv government controlled territory. Please explain to me, how is this proof that Ukraine wanted to invade.
      - aziaziazi 3y ago
        Shelling 5 days before an invasion reads to me: “shelling is the (or a) cause of the invasion”, not “invasion is the cause of the precedent shelling”. Like “causality happens before consequence”. However I’m far from being familiar with politico-military strategies and am here to learn. Please accept my excuse for the cynical tone of my precedent message.
        The_Colonel 3y ago
        Then how is it possible that Russians started the build up of forces around Ukrainian borders months before this increased rate of shelling? https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/russia-ukraine-invasion/2021/12/03/98a3760e-546b-11ec-8769-2f4ecdf7a2ad_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/russia-ukra...
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  > MOSCOW, Feb 19 (Reuters) - Two regions in eastern Ukraine where government and separatist forces have been fighting since 2014 were hit by more than 1,400 explosions on Friday How convenient. Russia had been moving soldiers and military equipment for months into position, scheduled a joint exercise with Belarus placing their soldiers in spitting distance of Kyiv, and then suddenly there are explosions "forcing" Russia to invade. Wow, it sure worked out fortunately that half of their military was already there.
  - roundandround 3y ago
    > Wow, it sure worked out fortunately that half of their military was already there. I'll say, if the whole military had been there the Ukraine would be sixteen times larger today!
  - usernew 3y ago
    I say this as an anti-GOP American who has lived a year an a half in Ukraine, has friends I currently financially support in Ukraine, and thinks Russia should be economically turned into North Korea: Belarus, the country, is "within spitting distance" of Kiev. There has always been tight integration between their armies, as well as open borders. There have Always been Russian soldiers close to Kiev, because that's where the city is geographically. What you are doing is putting a conspiracy-spin on something that is a common occurrence. To put this in other terms, here's what you stated: "A large number of armed Republicans have been found in the city of Crofton around Jan 6, spitting distance from the white house." Reality: The statement is true. It omits the inconvenient fact that for the last 50 year it's been a republican county with high gun ownership, and that's where they live. There is an immense amount of propaganda from Ukraine. Ukraine is an extremely corrupt country. They are trying to clean it up, but that's not a viable task at scale. We shipped $25bil in cash there last year - much of that, went into someone's pocket. I read Ukrainian news, in Ukrainian. They constantly announce people getting arrested with millions of fresh dollars in cash. They arrested a government official who stole 18 train cars worth of humanitarian aid, and sold it at his chain of stores. Their banks officially steal money from foreigners and locals under a new asset-forfeture type of law. Personal story: I have some friends there and a baby who is my goddaughter. Their city got leveled, they escaped westward and now live close to Poland. The government won't let men out of the country, despite my friend having a sick wife, and a 2yo baby. I've wired about $50k over there last year, and continue to send about 1/3 of my salary this year. He rents an apartment. The cities in the west, which are fairly safe - the locals escaped to Poland, Germany, and Canada, and are collecting welfare checks triple the size of their pre-war salaries. They then rent out their apartments to refugees from the east. Rent prices are 5x what they used to be, and they're making bank on their fellow nationals who can't leave. The reason they can't leave, despite a law like that being against the constitution there? Zelensky keeps holding popular votes, and everyone votes to force men to stay in the country. Because they're making bank on the rent. Recently, a new regulation passed, allowing the national bank to take money out of people's accounts, if they receive over $11k in a 30 day period. I wired $15k to my friend for the next 3 months of living expenses. The national bank confiscated the wire transfer, asking my friend for proof of where it came from. I had my bank send a letter saying it came from my direct-deposited salary (in America), and wrote a letter myself saying this is financial aid for my goddaughter's family. The bank refused to deposit the funds into my friend's account, and refused the request from Wells Fargo to reverse the wire. I then tried to send using paypal-xoom as it's still free for now. They're blocking transfers to Ukraine, because apparently many of their customers have had the funds confiscated, and never returned to the sender. From what you wrote, you're on a dopamine rush, and the Ukrainians are infallible heroes. I've lived in Moscow for 4 years for work, I've lived in Ukraine for almost two. I have professional contacts and friends in both places. The only difference between the people in charge of Ukraine, and the people in charge of Russia, is Ukraine doesn't have the military to go threaten the world - and if they did, they would. And yes, there are lots of nazis there, and they do celebrate nazis on public media. Less than we do stateside, but that's a stretch of truth, not a lie from Putler. Step back, analyze the situation with logic, and don't let your feelings guide your beliefs. Otherwise, you're the same as the nutjob republicans, just have different opinions.
- lisasays 3y ago
  This was just before russia entered the war. The war started (and Russia entered it) in 2014, as you are perfectly aware. On the other hand, eu/nato was training ukranian soldiers since 2015. As Ukraine had every right to, given the events of 2014.
InCityDreams 3y ago
>in any case the shelling has been going from both directions. Except the russians seem to direct their shells at hospitals etc.

ajsnigrutin 3y ago

Ukraine was preparing a war to take back donbas, and there was no "calming down". The problem is, that the media changed their stories after the start of war. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/osce-reports-surge-number-explosions-east-ukraine-2022-02-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/osce-reports-surge-numb... > MOSCOW, Feb 19 (Reuters) - Two regions in eastern Ukraine where government and separatist forces have been fighting since 2014 were hit by more than 1,400 explosions on Friday, monitors for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) said, pointing to a surge in shelling. 1400 "explosions" in one day are far away from "calm" to me. This was just before russia entered the war. On the other hand, eu/nato was training ukranian soldiers since 2015.

The_Colonel 3y ago
> Ukraine was preparing a war to take back donbas It's sad that there's absolutely zero evidence of that except for Kremlin's justification for its own invasion. Isn't this excuse as old as war? "we had to invade, otherwise they would invade us". > This was just before russia entered the war. Well, exactly. Russia was looking for casus beli. There were reports of increased separatist shelling, they likely wanted to provoke Ukraine into moving first, very similar playbook to 2008 Georgian war.
- aziaziazi 3y ago
  > there's absolutely zero evidence of that OP linked a Reuters post citing OSCE numbers. This organisation includes most European countries, US and Russia among others. If we can’t listen to est neither to west, who should we listen ? You, my Colonel ?
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    Well, have you read the article? It just states that the intensity of shelling intensified, which is not very surprising 5 days before the invasion? The article did not mention who intensified the shelling in the first place, but states that the only civilian casualty happened on the Kyiv government controlled territory. Please explain to me, how is this proof that Ukraine wanted to invade.
    - aziaziazi 3y ago
      Shelling 5 days before an invasion reads to me: “shelling is the (or a) cause of the invasion”, not “invasion is the cause of the precedent shelling”. Like “causality happens before consequence”. However I’m far from being familiar with politico-military strategies and am here to learn. Please accept my excuse for the cynical tone of my precedent message.
      - The_Colonel 3y ago
        Then how is it possible that Russians started the build up of forces around Ukrainian borders months before this increased rate of shelling? https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/russia-ukraine-invasion/2021/12/03/98a3760e-546b-11ec-8769-2f4ecdf7a2ad_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/russia-ukra...
reducesuffering 3y ago
> MOSCOW, Feb 19 (Reuters) - Two regions in eastern Ukraine where government and separatist forces have been fighting since 2014 were hit by more than 1,400 explosions on Friday How convenient. Russia had been moving soldiers and military equipment for months into position, scheduled a joint exercise with Belarus placing their soldiers in spitting distance of Kyiv, and then suddenly there are explosions "forcing" Russia to invade. Wow, it sure worked out fortunately that half of their military was already there.
- roundandround 3y ago
  > Wow, it sure worked out fortunately that half of their military was already there. I'll say, if the whole military had been there the Ukraine would be sixteen times larger today!
- usernew 3y ago
  I say this as an anti-GOP American who has lived a year an a half in Ukraine, has friends I currently financially support in Ukraine, and thinks Russia should be economically turned into North Korea: Belarus, the country, is "within spitting distance" of Kiev. There has always been tight integration between their armies, as well as open borders. There have Always been Russian soldiers close to Kiev, because that's where the city is geographically. What you are doing is putting a conspiracy-spin on something that is a common occurrence. To put this in other terms, here's what you stated: "A large number of armed Republicans have been found in the city of Crofton around Jan 6, spitting distance from the white house." Reality: The statement is true. It omits the inconvenient fact that for the last 50 year it's been a republican county with high gun ownership, and that's where they live. There is an immense amount of propaganda from Ukraine. Ukraine is an extremely corrupt country. They are trying to clean it up, but that's not a viable task at scale. We shipped $25bil in cash there last year - much of that, went into someone's pocket. I read Ukrainian news, in Ukrainian. They constantly announce people getting arrested with millions of fresh dollars in cash. They arrested a government official who stole 18 train cars worth of humanitarian aid, and sold it at his chain of stores. Their banks officially steal money from foreigners and locals under a new asset-forfeture type of law. Personal story: I have some friends there and a baby who is my goddaughter. Their city got leveled, they escaped westward and now live close to Poland. The government won't let men out of the country, despite my friend having a sick wife, and a 2yo baby. I've wired about $50k over there last year, and continue to send about 1/3 of my salary this year. He rents an apartment. The cities in the west, which are fairly safe - the locals escaped to Poland, Germany, and Canada, and are collecting welfare checks triple the size of their pre-war salaries. They then rent out their apartments to refugees from the east. Rent prices are 5x what they used to be, and they're making bank on their fellow nationals who can't leave. The reason they can't leave, despite a law like that being against the constitution there? Zelensky keeps holding popular votes, and everyone votes to force men to stay in the country. Because they're making bank on the rent. Recently, a new regulation passed, allowing the national bank to take money out of people's accounts, if they receive over $11k in a 30 day period. I wired $15k to my friend for the next 3 months of living expenses. The national bank confiscated the wire transfer, asking my friend for proof of where it came from. I had my bank send a letter saying it came from my direct-deposited salary (in America), and wrote a letter myself saying this is financial aid for my goddaughter's family. The bank refused to deposit the funds into my friend's account, and refused the request from Wells Fargo to reverse the wire. I then tried to send using paypal-xoom as it's still free for now. They're blocking transfers to Ukraine, because apparently many of their customers have had the funds confiscated, and never returned to the sender. From what you wrote, you're on a dopamine rush, and the Ukrainians are infallible heroes. I've lived in Moscow for 4 years for work, I've lived in Ukraine for almost two. I have professional contacts and friends in both places. The only difference between the people in charge of Ukraine, and the people in charge of Russia, is Ukraine doesn't have the military to go threaten the world - and if they did, they would. And yes, there are lots of nazis there, and they do celebrate nazis on public media. Less than we do stateside, but that's a stretch of truth, not a lie from Putler. Step back, analyze the situation with logic, and don't let your feelings guide your beliefs. Otherwise, you're the same as the nutjob republicans, just have different opinions.
lisasays 3y ago
This was just before russia entered the war. The war started (and Russia entered it) in 2014, as you are perfectly aware. On the other hand, eu/nato was training ukranian soldiers since 2015. As Ukraine had every right to, given the events of 2014.

InCityDreams 3y ago

>in any case the shelling has been going from both directions. Except the russians seem to direct their shells at hospitals etc.