4 ms·

Here in Denmark we had negative electricity prices over the weekend. Its a surreal feeling: suddenly, turning on all the equipment is good, and not just financi

Here in Denmark we had negative electricity prices over the weekend. Its a surreal feeling: suddenly, turning on all the equipment is good, and not just financially -- the energy was coming mostly from wind and solar, so it wasn't even a bad thing from a carbon footprint perspective.

the_third_wave 3y ago
> suddenly, turning on all the equipment is good, and not just financially I assume you have the same type of energy taxes in Denmark as we have in Sweden and that as such "negative electricity prices" only apply to the wholesale market (Nord Pool [1])? In that case you still pay: 1: market surcharge (påslag) 2: energy tax (energiskatt) 3: renewable energy surcharge (certifikatavgift) 4: transmission charge (överföringsavgift) 5: VAT on the previous (moms, 25% in Sweden) Here in Sweden this means that "free" electricity costs around ((6 + 39 + 1 + 31) * 1.25 = ) ~ 0.85 kr (Swedish crowns or 'kronor') per kWh. Negative electricity prices do affect those who have solar panels since - depending on the contract - it can actually cost money to push more energy into the network. In our case we'd pay when the price goes below ca. -0.35 kr/kWh which has not happened - yet. [1] https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/#/nordic/table https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/#/nordic/table
jandrese 3y ago
What this says to me is that Denmark has underinvested in energy storage. Don't worry, this is true of most every country on Earth at the moment. Generation tech has outpaced the storage tech for a few years and now we are getting pathological cases like this cropping up from time to time. The good news is that battery factories are coming online all the time and there is a possibility of closing the gap in the next few years. This is also a prerequisite for transitioning away from dirty fossil fuels.
- jfengel 3y ago
  Energy storage is good, but there's nothing wrong with "We've got more electricity than we can use, go be productive with it." I don't know what industries could take advantage of that -- smelt some extra aluminum, make some extra fertilizer, sequester some extra CO2. But time-shifting production is also a valid way to "store" energy. It's a problem that could be an opportunity.
- brazzy 3y ago
  > Generation tech has outpaced the storage tech for a few years It's more like storage tech went nowhere for decades. > and now we are getting pathological cases like this cropping up from time to time. It's not pathological at all to have more generation capacity than you can use when the source varies so much. It's just reality.
  - jandrese 3y ago
    Even just 20 years ago renewable generation was barely a blip on the national power grid, because they were so expensive as to be completely impractical. Our era of affordable solar is less than a decade old. No demand for storage meant no activity in the market, hence the lag now that wind and solar have become so cheap that everybody can install it.

the_third_wave 3y ago

> suddenly, turning on all the equipment is good, and not just financially I assume you have the same type of energy taxes in Denmark as we have in Sweden and that as such "negative electricity prices" only apply to the wholesale market (Nord Pool [1])? In that case you still pay: 1: market surcharge (påslag) 2: energy tax (energiskatt) 3: renewable energy surcharge (certifikatavgift) 4: transmission charge (överföringsavgift) 5: VAT on the previous (moms, 25% in Sweden) Here in Sweden this means that "free" electricity costs around ((6 + 39 + 1 + 31) * 1.25 = ) ~ 0.85 kr (Swedish crowns or 'kronor') per kWh. Negative electricity prices do affect those who have solar panels since - depending on the contract - it can actually cost money to push more energy into the network. In our case we'd pay when the price goes below ca. -0.35 kr/kWh which has not happened - yet. [1] https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/#/nordic/table https://www.nordpoolgroup.com/en/Market-data1/#/nordic/table

jandrese 3y ago

What this says to me is that Denmark has underinvested in energy storage. Don't worry, this is true of most every country on Earth at the moment. Generation tech has outpaced the storage tech for a few years and now we are getting pathological cases like this cropping up from time to time. The good news is that battery factories are coming online all the time and there is a possibility of closing the gap in the next few years. This is also a prerequisite for transitioning away from dirty fossil fuels.

jfengel 3y ago
Energy storage is good, but there's nothing wrong with "We've got more electricity than we can use, go be productive with it." I don't know what industries could take advantage of that -- smelt some extra aluminum, make some extra fertilizer, sequester some extra CO2. But time-shifting production is also a valid way to "store" energy. It's a problem that could be an opportunity.
brazzy 3y ago
> Generation tech has outpaced the storage tech for a few years It's more like storage tech went nowhere for decades. > and now we are getting pathological cases like this cropping up from time to time. It's not pathological at all to have more generation capacity than you can use when the source varies so much. It's just reality.
- jandrese 3y ago
  Even just 20 years ago renewable generation was barely a blip on the national power grid, because they were so expensive as to be completely impractical. Our era of affordable solar is less than a decade old. No demand for storage meant no activity in the market, hence the lag now that wind and solar have become so cheap that everybody can install it.