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> By late 2019, Lorimer and Justin Moore, then the head of engineering, were ready to form a team to “do the impossible” — create a home-grown mapping system.

> By late 2019, Lorimer and Justin Moore, then the head of engineering, were ready to form a team to “do the impossible” — create a home-grown mapping system. THE IMPOSSIBLE: A "home-grown" mapping system built on OpenStreetMaps? Lyft seems to really lack any imagination if _that_ was considered impossible.

imbusy111 3y ago
It was impossible a few years ago, when the OSM data wasn't good enough and the cost of acquiring the data themselves was too high.
- bredren 3y ago
  I have thought that some major service migrated to OSM by 2019. I can’t remember which, or even if it was a success. But I didn’t realize the data was that bad just three years ago. Then again, Apple Maps started getting sorted out around then too iirc.
  - 29083011397778 3y ago
    > Then again, Apple Maps started getting sorted out around then too iirc. And we assume completely coincidentally? Not that Apple Maps, like Google Maps, pulls in data volunteered by the OSM community (both corporate and personal members), packages and improves (sometimes "improves") it, then locks it away behind paid API calls? In this case and many others, the free and community built project enabled, assisted, or powered the multi-billion dollar tech conglomorate. I recognize I might sound bitter or dismissive of companies mapping the world and giving it away to consumers for free, but so much is built on openness that so many companies just eat without giving back.
    - GeekyBear 3y ago
      > Not that Apple Maps, like Google Maps, pulls in data volunteered by the OSM... then locks it away You have that backwards, at least for some companies. > How Facebook, Apple and Microsoft are contributing to OSM At the State of the Map conference in Milan, the teams from Microsoft, Apple and Facebook presented their projects, describing how they are working with communities. https://www.theodi.org/article/how-are-facebook-apple-and-microsoft-contributing-to-openstreetmap/ https://www.theodi.org/article/how-are-facebook-apple-and-mi... I've never seen any cite for Google contributing their data to OSM.
      - 29083011397778 3y ago
        > You have that backwards, at least for some companies Absolutely I do - my overall (and apparently poorly communicated) point was more about Apple pulling in data from OSM to improve their product. They (and others) do contribute back, I only meant it's hardly coincidental that OSM and Apple Maps improved around the same time. > I've never seen any cite for Google contributing their data to OSM. This is what I'm so up-in-arms about: people spend so much time adding to Google Maps for free (not even necessarily via OSM), to be locked away behind paid (past a limit) API calls. Perhaps I should have been more explicit in that many companies contribute back, and Google being an outlier in that.
        GeekyBear 3y ago
        > it's hardly coincidental that OSM and Apple Maps improved around the same time True, but in Apple's case, the massive improvements stemmed from no longer relying solely on data licensed from others, and starting a program back in 2018 to collect their own map data from scratch. https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/apple-is-rebuilding-maps-from-the-ground-up/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/apple-is-rebuilding-maps-f...
    - astrange 3y ago
      Apple Maps doesn't use OSM for developed countries, but for places like SEA and Africa. It's places like Facebook and Mapbox who use OSM for everything IIRC (don't trust me here as I didn't check this.) Actually, does Google Maps use OSM for anything?
      - dalkvist 3y ago
        Google dont directly use osm, as far as we know, but they or subcontractors check the changelogs and often add newly built things hours/ days after they get added to osm, presumably from their own sources as the data is not identical.
- babyshake 3y ago
  If the managers and ICs agree that something is impossible but they will do or have done it anyways, then that makes a pretty good case for them getting promotions.
itake 3y ago
Grab has been using OSM for years and they contribute back. I don't see where the innovation is here? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab
KaiserPro 3y ago
> Lyft seems to really lack any imagination if _that_ was considered impossible. Depends on how you are making the maps. If you're paying someone to trudge around/trace out satellite photos, then yes, its not very imaginative. If you are using SLAM to generate maps automatically, then thats a different beast entirely. Only a handful of companies were able to do that in 2019, two got bought by meta (who then fucked up the tech, well done zuck) two went bankrupt and one was aquired by lyft.
sushid 3y ago
What's more shocking is that they decided using 250 high paid EPD workers to not pay a Google Map licensing was the way to go. They could have incubated at least 10 different products during this critical time.
- lowbloodsugar 3y ago
  Given that Lyft's only rival, Uber, is partnering with Google's Waymo, seems like a prescient move to get out from Google's thumb.
- twelve40 3y ago
  it's not about not paying Google Map licensing. There are, as mentioned, geo features like pickup ETA, trip ETA and cost, drop-off location photos and features that Google doesn't provide at all.

imbusy111 3y ago

It was impossible a few years ago, when the OSM data wasn't good enough and the cost of acquiring the data themselves was too high.

bredren 3y ago
I have thought that some major service migrated to OSM by 2019. I can’t remember which, or even if it was a success. But I didn’t realize the data was that bad just three years ago. Then again, Apple Maps started getting sorted out around then too iirc.
- 29083011397778 3y ago
  > Then again, Apple Maps started getting sorted out around then too iirc. And we assume completely coincidentally? Not that Apple Maps, like Google Maps, pulls in data volunteered by the OSM community (both corporate and personal members), packages and improves (sometimes "improves") it, then locks it away behind paid API calls? In this case and many others, the free and community built project enabled, assisted, or powered the multi-billion dollar tech conglomorate. I recognize I might sound bitter or dismissive of companies mapping the world and giving it away to consumers for free, but so much is built on openness that so many companies just eat without giving back.
  - GeekyBear 3y ago
    > Not that Apple Maps, like Google Maps, pulls in data volunteered by the OSM... then locks it away You have that backwards, at least for some companies. > How Facebook, Apple and Microsoft are contributing to OSM At the State of the Map conference in Milan, the teams from Microsoft, Apple and Facebook presented their projects, describing how they are working with communities. https://www.theodi.org/article/how-are-facebook-apple-and-microsoft-contributing-to-openstreetmap/ https://www.theodi.org/article/how-are-facebook-apple-and-mi... I've never seen any cite for Google contributing their data to OSM.
    - 29083011397778 3y ago
      > You have that backwards, at least for some companies Absolutely I do - my overall (and apparently poorly communicated) point was more about Apple pulling in data from OSM to improve their product. They (and others) do contribute back, I only meant it's hardly coincidental that OSM and Apple Maps improved around the same time. > I've never seen any cite for Google contributing their data to OSM. This is what I'm so up-in-arms about: people spend so much time adding to Google Maps for free (not even necessarily via OSM), to be locked away behind paid (past a limit) API calls. Perhaps I should have been more explicit in that many companies contribute back, and Google being an outlier in that.
      - GeekyBear 3y ago
        > it's hardly coincidental that OSM and Apple Maps improved around the same time True, but in Apple's case, the massive improvements stemmed from no longer relying solely on data licensed from others, and starting a program back in 2018 to collect their own map data from scratch. https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/apple-is-rebuilding-maps-from-the-ground-up/ https://techcrunch.com/2018/06/29/apple-is-rebuilding-maps-f...
  - astrange 3y ago
    Apple Maps doesn't use OSM for developed countries, but for places like SEA and Africa. It's places like Facebook and Mapbox who use OSM for everything IIRC (don't trust me here as I didn't check this.) Actually, does Google Maps use OSM for anything?
    - dalkvist 3y ago
      Google dont directly use osm, as far as we know, but they or subcontractors check the changelogs and often add newly built things hours/ days after they get added to osm, presumably from their own sources as the data is not identical.
babyshake 3y ago
If the managers and ICs agree that something is impossible but they will do or have done it anyways, then that makes a pretty good case for them getting promotions.

itake 3y ago

Grab has been using OSM for years and they contribute back. I don't see where the innovation is here? https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Grab

KaiserPro 3y ago

> Lyft seems to really lack any imagination if _that_ was considered impossible. Depends on how you are making the maps. If you're paying someone to trudge around/trace out satellite photos, then yes, its not very imaginative. If you are using SLAM to generate maps automatically, then thats a different beast entirely. Only a handful of companies were able to do that in 2019, two got bought by meta (who then fucked up the tech, well done zuck) two went bankrupt and one was aquired by lyft.

sushid 3y ago

What's more shocking is that they decided using 250 high paid EPD workers to not pay a Google Map licensing was the way to go. They could have incubated at least 10 different products during this critical time.

lowbloodsugar 3y ago
Given that Lyft's only rival, Uber, is partnering with Google's Waymo, seems like a prescient move to get out from Google's thumb.
twelve40 3y ago
it's not about not paying Google Map licensing. There are, as mentioned, geo features like pickup ETA, trip ETA and cost, drop-off location photos and features that Google doesn't provide at all.