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Let's rephrase "throwing Ukraine under a bus" as "not getting involved in a border dispute between two Eastern European countries", and maybe the answer is less

Let's rephrase "throwing Ukraine under a bus" as "not getting involved in a border dispute between two Eastern European countries", and maybe the answer is less obvious.

reducesuffering 3y ago
Border dispute? They invaded the country, surrounded the capital and shelled the shit out of it.
- ajsnigrutin 3y ago
  Yes, because they shelled the minority who wanted independence since 2014. Nato bombed yugoslavia for months for the same thing, and they still act as a defensive organization.
  - The_Colonel 3y ago
    We could discuss the 2014 events for hours and in any case the shelling has been going from both directions. But there's one clear fact - the war in Donbas was calming down in intensity in the years preceding 2022. In the three years 2019-2021, 78 civilians died in total, mostly from old unexploded mines. There was absolutely no "need" to make it a full scale war and ramp up the number to tens of thousands civilians dead.
    - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
      Ukraine was preparing a war to take back donbas, and there was no "calming down". The problem is, that the media changed their stories after the start of war. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/osce-reports-surge-number-explosions-east-ukraine-2022-02-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/osce-reports-surge-numb... > MOSCOW, Feb 19 (Reuters) - Two regions in eastern Ukraine where government and separatist forces have been fighting since 2014 were hit by more than 1,400 explosions on Friday, monitors for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) said, pointing to a surge in shelling. 1400 "explosions" in one day are far away from "calm" to me. This was just before russia entered the war. On the other hand, eu/nato was training ukranian soldiers since 2015.
      - The_Colonel 3y ago
        > Ukraine was preparing a war to take back donbas It's sad that there's absolutely zero evidence of that except for Kremlin's justification for its own invasion. Isn't this excuse as old as war? "we had to invade, otherwise they would invade us". > This was just before russia entered the war. Well, exactly. Russia was looking for casus beli. There were reports of increased separatist shelling, they likely wanted to provoke Ukraine into moving first, very similar playbook to 2008 Georgian war.
        aziaziazi 3y ago
        > there's absolutely zero evidence of that OP linked a Reuters post citing OSCE numbers. This organisation includes most European countries, US and Russia among others. If we can’t listen to est neither to west, who should we listen ? You, my Colonel ?
        The_Colonel 3y ago
        Well, have you read the article? It just states that the intensity of shelling intensified, which is not very surprising 5 days before the invasion? The article did not mention who intensified the shelling in the first place, but states that the only civilian casualty happened on the Kyiv government controlled territory. Please explain to me, how is this proof that Ukraine wanted to invade.
        aziaziazi 3y ago
        Shelling 5 days before an invasion reads to me: “shelling is the (or a) cause of the invasion”, not “invasion is the cause of the precedent shelling”. Like “causality happens before consequence”. However I’m far from being familiar with politico-military strategies and am here to learn. Please accept my excuse for the cynical tone of my precedent message.
        The_Colonel 3y ago
        Then how is it possible that Russians started the build up of forces around Ukrainian borders months before this increased rate of shelling? https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/russia-ukraine-invasion/2021/12/03/98a3760e-546b-11ec-8769-2f4ecdf7a2ad_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/russia-ukra...
    - InCityDreams 3y ago
      >in any case the shelling has been going from both directions. Except the russians seem to direct their shells at hospitals etc.
  - wiseowise 3y ago
    > Yes, because they shelled the minority who wanted independence since 2014. Funny way to spell “fought separatist forces supported by Russia”.
    - unmole 3y ago
      That's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I fight separatist forces. You violently suppress minorities. He has been charged with war crimes under the Rome Statute.
flohofwoe 3y ago
So now it's called a "border dispute" and no longer a "special military operation"? /s
wiseowise 3y ago
New metodichka landed, comrade?

Let's rephrase "throwing Ukraine under a bus" as "not getting involved in a border dispute between two Eastern European countries", and maybe the answer is less obvious.

reducesuffering 3y ago

Border dispute? They invaded the country, surrounded the capital and shelled the shit out of it.

ajsnigrutin 3y ago
Yes, because they shelled the minority who wanted independence since 2014. Nato bombed yugoslavia for months for the same thing, and they still act as a defensive organization.
- The_Colonel 3y ago
  We could discuss the 2014 events for hours and in any case the shelling has been going from both directions. But there's one clear fact - the war in Donbas was calming down in intensity in the years preceding 2022. In the three years 2019-2021, 78 civilians died in total, mostly from old unexploded mines. There was absolutely no "need" to make it a full scale war and ramp up the number to tens of thousands civilians dead.
  - ajsnigrutin 3y ago
    Ukraine was preparing a war to take back donbas, and there was no "calming down". The problem is, that the media changed their stories after the start of war. https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/osce-reports-surge-number-explosions-east-ukraine-2022-02-19/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/osce-reports-surge-numb... > MOSCOW, Feb 19 (Reuters) - Two regions in eastern Ukraine where government and separatist forces have been fighting since 2014 were hit by more than 1,400 explosions on Friday, monitors for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) said, pointing to a surge in shelling. 1400 "explosions" in one day are far away from "calm" to me. This was just before russia entered the war. On the other hand, eu/nato was training ukranian soldiers since 2015.
    - The_Colonel 3y ago
      > Ukraine was preparing a war to take back donbas It's sad that there's absolutely zero evidence of that except for Kremlin's justification for its own invasion. Isn't this excuse as old as war? "we had to invade, otherwise they would invade us". > This was just before russia entered the war. Well, exactly. Russia was looking for casus beli. There were reports of increased separatist shelling, they likely wanted to provoke Ukraine into moving first, very similar playbook to 2008 Georgian war.
      - aziaziazi 3y ago
        > there's absolutely zero evidence of that OP linked a Reuters post citing OSCE numbers. This organisation includes most European countries, US and Russia among others. If we can’t listen to est neither to west, who should we listen ? You, my Colonel ?
        The_Colonel 3y ago
        Well, have you read the article? It just states that the intensity of shelling intensified, which is not very surprising 5 days before the invasion? The article did not mention who intensified the shelling in the first place, but states that the only civilian casualty happened on the Kyiv government controlled territory. Please explain to me, how is this proof that Ukraine wanted to invade.
        aziaziazi 3y ago
        Shelling 5 days before an invasion reads to me: “shelling is the (or a) cause of the invasion”, not “invasion is the cause of the precedent shelling”. Like “causality happens before consequence”. However I’m far from being familiar with politico-military strategies and am here to learn. Please accept my excuse for the cynical tone of my precedent message.
        The_Colonel 3y ago
        Then how is it possible that Russians started the build up of forces around Ukrainian borders months before this increased rate of shelling? https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/russia-ukraine-invasion/2021/12/03/98a3760e-546b-11ec-8769-2f4ecdf7a2ad_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/russia-ukra...
  - InCityDreams 3y ago
    >in any case the shelling has been going from both directions. Except the russians seem to direct their shells at hospitals etc.
- wiseowise 3y ago
  > Yes, because they shelled the minority who wanted independence since 2014. Funny way to spell “fought separatist forces supported by Russia”.
  - unmole 3y ago
    That's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I fight separatist forces. You violently suppress minorities. He has been charged with war crimes under the Rome Statute.

flohofwoe 3y ago

So now it's called a "border dispute" and no longer a "special military operation"? /s

wiseowise 3y ago

New metodichka landed, comrade?