5 ms·

The problem is that internet is both a library and a public place. You need library for information and for work, and internet delivers here better than anythin

by divan 3y ago

The problem is that internet is both a library and a public place. You need library for information and for work, and internet delivers here better than anything else - almost any information is available instantly. But unlike library with silence and no distractions you're at the same time in the middle of the giant public square, where all the people from your social circle also available instantly. It's like studying in the middle of the giant party. Of course you can plug in noise cancellation headphones and find dark corner, but you brain knows that all people you care about are right here. If you want to share some thoughts or check on someone in the library you have no choice – you can't talk to them, or have to go outside. But internet removes this constraint. I really believe this social aspect of reachability of people (friends, haters or some people on internet you follow) is crucial. It's not about apps or a screen time, it's about social connection (even ephemeral) that gives this gratification and makes our brains summoning the apps.

TeMPOraL 3y ago
> I really believe this social aspect of reachability of people (friends, haters or some people on internet you follow) is crucial. It's not about apps or a screen time, it's about social connection (even ephemeral) that gives this gratification and makes our brains summoning the apps. This. I've concluded the same, observing my own interaction patterns. I use very little social media (would've ditched Facebook if not for Messenger, and Instagram if not for my wife liking to post "stories"). I do, however, have a huge HN problem. But it's not a consumption problem. I feel a compulsion to comment (like here, now). If I don't do it - e.g. because I can't find anything I feel like responding to - I quickly get tired and it's easy to close all those HN tabs. I've tried breaks from HN. Each time, I somehow ended up on Reddit. Again, not consuming, but engaging in discussions on various subreddits that tend to be more about conversation than links. The few times I tried to stop myself from that, I quickly ended up on Mastodon, posting "tweet storms" and creating more interesting conversations. So at least in my case, it's definitely about connection. Pure consumption has its draw, but I can kick that somewhat easily. But those kinds of conversation - which, for reasons I'm not sure of, have no equivalent in meat space - have me in an iron grip.
- em500 3y ago
  One way to moderate this is to remove them from your phone and just access them from a PC end of day. There is no value from 24/7 instant access to Reddit or HN (or the majority of network connected apps if you think about it), as opposed to browsing for an hour or two at the end of the day if you have some downtime.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    I wholeheartedly agree. I wish it would work for me, though. In fact, I dislike browsing Reddit and HN on my mobile, as even though Reddit Is Fun (for Reddit) and Firefox (for HN) are excellent for consuming, I'm in it for participation, so I'm limited by touch keyboards, which universally suck. At this point I've pretty much given up. During my HN-satiated moments, I can't devise a plan that my HN-deprived self won't overcome. Case in point: the last thing I ever posted on my blog, three years and five days ago, was about setting up a HN block at a router level. I was so happy with my trick that I had to share it with the world. Guess how long that trick worked? Less than a week after publishing the blog post.
    - dmbche 3y ago
      Just a quick tip - but I understand it's possibly not ideal. You have a lot of karma, and I've noticed that the karma counter going up feels somewhat addictive. The existence of a "persona" (it's possible you think of your identity here as slightly different from your daily identity) that is only supported by your commenting also might encourage commenting. I'd propose to nuke your account by changing the password to gibberish (or asking a significant other to put a weird password and keep it written somewhere if you reaaaally want to keep access to your account) and to use HN anonymously. Just give it a try - if it's really an issue for you this has helped me with other things.
      - alwaysbeconsing 3y ago
        Excellent tip. A lighter form, that I use personally for Reddit, is to not sign in persistently. I always use a "private" browser window when I log in, so the cookie isn't saved, and the next time I want to log in I have to go dig the (unmemorizable) password out of my password manager again and go through the whole flow. For me it creates just enough friction.
throwaway1777 3y ago
I disagree that it’s a problem and with your analogy. The internet is more like a giant sprawling suburb where one house is studying advanced maths and the other is throwing a keg party. Sure it might disturb you to have neighbors like that but you have your own space.
- divan 3y ago
  Perhaps my analogy with studing at the party was not perfect. The point was that your friends are here and now, not that someone is making noises and having fun. You're right from the structural/organizational perspective. If you visit astronomy forums and not 4chan, houses analogy holds true. But my analogy comes from how my brain perceives reachability of other humans (especially one I care about). When I'm "in house", it takes a lot of effort to meet someone and have the human connection (i.e. you should agree on time and date, arrange the meeting, exit the house, reach the meeting point). But internet makes this almost instant – just open messenger/social media and here they're are, virtually always online.
  - pixl97 3y ago
    "X degrees of separation" IRL we typically have multiple degrees of separation from other people/things. You can be separated by distance/time. You can be separated by people, for example to have a party with Jon, you need to coordinate with Bob. Things like noise tend to obey the R squared law. With the internet nearly everything is a single instantaneous hop away. The good things, the bad things. The same amount of effort is needed to access it all.
wussboy 3y ago
> I really believe this social aspect of reachability of people (friends, haters or some people on internet you follow) is crucial. It's not about apps or a screen time, it's about social connection (even ephemeral) that gives this gratification and makes our brains summoning the apps. I think this is a bug, not a feature. The mobile phone is to sociality as cocaine is to dopamine. It's super-charged, it's way out of our ancestral environment, and we don't see it as harmful only because we don't have the research yet. But we will.
Hayarotle 3y ago
It's not just a public place, but a very specific type of public place: a shopping mall. Were it just a public square with people from your social circle, then it wouldn't be as dangerous. As a shopping mall, it's full of advertisements, slot machines, games, fast food, sales clerks trying to lead you into the place they want you to be, etc. But it is also the place where almost all your friends are, and almost all the books and newspapers are. It's hard to leave it because it has valuable things inside (even your office might be inside the mall), but it's also hard to stay in without having your agency taken away by everyone competing for your attention. You could get a book from the bookstore, read it and talk to your friends about it, but it's hard to do that in a mall where everything is designed to take you to their stores, entertainment centers, etc.
- WorldMaker 3y ago
  Not to mention that slot machines are notoriously addictive and most apps that aren't games have been incentivized both by advertisers or in lieu of additional advertiser revenue to include variations of slot machines in their feature lists because that attracts attention and keeps attention.

by divan 3y ago

TeMPOraL 3y ago

> I really believe this social aspect of reachability of people (friends, haters or some people on internet you follow) is crucial. It's not about apps or a screen time, it's about social connection (even ephemeral) that gives this gratification and makes our brains summoning the apps. This. I've concluded the same, observing my own interaction patterns. I use very little social media (would've ditched Facebook if not for Messenger, and Instagram if not for my wife liking to post "stories"). I do, however, have a huge HN problem. But it's not a consumption problem. I feel a compulsion to comment (like here, now). If I don't do it - e.g. because I can't find anything I feel like responding to - I quickly get tired and it's easy to close all those HN tabs. I've tried breaks from HN. Each time, I somehow ended up on Reddit. Again, not consuming, but engaging in discussions on various subreddits that tend to be more about conversation than links. The few times I tried to stop myself from that, I quickly ended up on Mastodon, posting "tweet storms" and creating more interesting conversations. So at least in my case, it's definitely about connection. Pure consumption has its draw, but I can kick that somewhat easily. But those kinds of conversation - which, for reasons I'm not sure of, have no equivalent in meat space - have me in an iron grip.

em500 3y ago
One way to moderate this is to remove them from your phone and just access them from a PC end of day. There is no value from 24/7 instant access to Reddit or HN (or the majority of network connected apps if you think about it), as opposed to browsing for an hour or two at the end of the day if you have some downtime.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  I wholeheartedly agree. I wish it would work for me, though. In fact, I dislike browsing Reddit and HN on my mobile, as even though Reddit Is Fun (for Reddit) and Firefox (for HN) are excellent for consuming, I'm in it for participation, so I'm limited by touch keyboards, which universally suck. At this point I've pretty much given up. During my HN-satiated moments, I can't devise a plan that my HN-deprived self won't overcome. Case in point: the last thing I ever posted on my blog, three years and five days ago, was about setting up a HN block at a router level. I was so happy with my trick that I had to share it with the world. Guess how long that trick worked? Less than a week after publishing the blog post.
  - dmbche 3y ago
    Just a quick tip - but I understand it's possibly not ideal. You have a lot of karma, and I've noticed that the karma counter going up feels somewhat addictive. The existence of a "persona" (it's possible you think of your identity here as slightly different from your daily identity) that is only supported by your commenting also might encourage commenting. I'd propose to nuke your account by changing the password to gibberish (or asking a significant other to put a weird password and keep it written somewhere if you reaaaally want to keep access to your account) and to use HN anonymously. Just give it a try - if it's really an issue for you this has helped me with other things.
    - alwaysbeconsing 3y ago
      Excellent tip. A lighter form, that I use personally for Reddit, is to not sign in persistently. I always use a "private" browser window when I log in, so the cookie isn't saved, and the next time I want to log in I have to go dig the (unmemorizable) password out of my password manager again and go through the whole flow. For me it creates just enough friction.

throwaway1777 3y ago

I disagree that it’s a problem and with your analogy. The internet is more like a giant sprawling suburb where one house is studying advanced maths and the other is throwing a keg party. Sure it might disturb you to have neighbors like that but you have your own space.

divan 3y ago
Perhaps my analogy with studing at the party was not perfect. The point was that your friends are here and now, not that someone is making noises and having fun. You're right from the structural/organizational perspective. If you visit astronomy forums and not 4chan, houses analogy holds true. But my analogy comes from how my brain perceives reachability of other humans (especially one I care about). When I'm "in house", it takes a lot of effort to meet someone and have the human connection (i.e. you should agree on time and date, arrange the meeting, exit the house, reach the meeting point). But internet makes this almost instant – just open messenger/social media and here they're are, virtually always online.
- pixl97 3y ago
  "X degrees of separation" IRL we typically have multiple degrees of separation from other people/things. You can be separated by distance/time. You can be separated by people, for example to have a party with Jon, you need to coordinate with Bob. Things like noise tend to obey the R squared law. With the internet nearly everything is a single instantaneous hop away. The good things, the bad things. The same amount of effort is needed to access it all.

wussboy 3y ago

Hayarotle 3y ago

It's not just a public place, but a very specific type of public place: a shopping mall. Were it just a public square with people from your social circle, then it wouldn't be as dangerous. As a shopping mall, it's full of advertisements, slot machines, games, fast food, sales clerks trying to lead you into the place they want you to be, etc. But it is also the place where almost all your friends are, and almost all the books and newspapers are. It's hard to leave it because it has valuable things inside (even your office might be inside the mall), but it's also hard to stay in without having your agency taken away by everyone competing for your attention. You could get a book from the bookstore, read it and talk to your friends about it, but it's hard to do that in a mall where everything is designed to take you to their stores, entertainment centers, etc.

WorldMaker 3y ago
Not to mention that slot machines are notoriously addictive and most apps that aren't games have been incentivized both by advertisers or in lieu of additional advertiser revenue to include variations of slot machines in their feature lists because that attracts attention and keeps attention.