4 ms·

Those figures are wrong to be honest. Most senior folks in Spain don't work for Spanish companies in general; they work for EU companies that pay more. Plenty o

Those figures are wrong to be honest. Most senior folks in Spain don't work for Spanish companies in general; they work for EU companies that pay more. Plenty of senior folks in Spain making $100k+. In Barcelona, you can make north of $70K easy; even for non-senior devs. I agree with OP. The salary is way too low for a senior European developer to consider because taking a US job means that there are no employment protections that you'd usually get; employment is at will for contractors. Source: I live in the EU.

littlecranky67 3y ago
> Most senior folks in Spain don't work for Spanish companies in general; they work for EU companies that pay more. I doubt that statement. As a German living in Spain since the pandemic, I dealt with this and my social bubble is full of tech expats dealing with this, too. Living in one EU country and working remotely as an employee for another one, is almost legally impossible, and full of unnecessary hurdles for both employer and employee. Everyone of top-talent grade I know who does this, is basically either self-employed (as I am) or operates a "legal construct" such as having empty "mailbox flats" in the country they work for (breaking all sorts of laws by doing so). The EU itself has never harmonized income tax laws; actually all of the EUs political system always tries not to touch the tax subject at all. As a result, each EU state has an individual double-tax treaty with all other members states. Yes, do the math - there are hundreds tax treaties between EU member states. Non of them are based on some EU guidance or blueprint, and oftentimes older than the EU itself (german-spain treaty dates back mostly to the 1960s with some minor additions in the early 2000s). Finding legal advice alone is almost impossible (i.e. a lawyer that speaks either of your languages and both legal systems recently well). And if you do, good luck, your fellow civil cervant at your tax offices will screw up your fringe case anyways. Worker-protection laws apply by country of residence, but the employer is bound by their national ones too. If you live in Spain and work remotely for a german company, legally you are bound by spanish worker laws. That is, you get spanish bank holidays off, minimum wage laws of Spain (and Germany!) and so forth. Even when figuring out all legal subtleties, it is simply not manageable for any companies HR department to deal with all country specific regulations and changes, let alone in different languages. I run a company myself and could not employ a person from another EU country within reasonable effort; the only way to go is hire them as contractors or through payrolling agencies. Both will not make them your employees, which has a lot of other legal consequences (holidays, employee patent/inventions laws, but also stuff like you can't really enforce any policy on them without going through the intermediaries).
re-thc 3y ago
> Those figures are wrong to be honest. Most senior folks in Spain don't work for Spanish companies in general; they work for EU companies that pay more. Does that contradict those figures though? Are you talking about the upper 10% discussed?
- gamesbrainiac 3y ago
  From PayScale, the upper is at $50K. You wouldn't even get an average developer for that salary in Barcelona for example.
jacquesm 3y ago
North of $70K is still a ways away from $100K+ and I'd love to see which companies we're talking about here because that's not the news that reaches me from Spain. Rather the opposite.
- hef19898 3y ago
  Once you accept the fact that single income families don't afford real estate ownership, 70k is easily sufficient for a comfortable life. Again, assuming it is a double income household. It is so for the high price region in Southern Germany around Munich.
- pjerem 3y ago
  70k in Europe is totally comparable to 100k in US though and is a pretty comfortable salary in Europe. Even if life is a little more expensive in Europe, you don’t need as much emergency savings as in the US.
  - 908B64B197 3y ago
    Tax system in Europe is also a lot more complicated with many loopholes. In Belgium, almost every white collar job has a company car included, since it's much much cheaper than for an individual to buy one.
  - throwaway6734 3y ago
    I'm not sold on that over the long term. Many western European countries have rough economic outlooks due to their terrible demographics.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
    > 70k in Europe is totally comparable to 100k in US Where in the US? It's a massive country with a huge regional variation in cost of living.
    - Nanana909 3y ago
      The EU is also vast with huge variations. I think it’s a general, average comparison.
sgt 3y ago
That can't be good for Spain's own IT industry e.g. national companies, or even government agencies wanting to employ senior IT personnel.
- gamesbrainiac 3y ago
  It isn't. It has pretty much decimated their industry to the point where there are no decent tech companies in Spain, and the few that exist do not pay those local rates (typeform for example).
shrikant 3y ago
Yeah Spain salaries aren't great for devs even by the UK's standards, but GP's numbers seem way too low. About 4 years back I didn't bother proceeding with a couple of (well, two) mid-level engineering positions based out of Barcelona because they paid too low (about €55,000) compared to what I could get in the UK for an equivalent role. One of them was for King, who was still raking it in then, and I can't remember the other organisation. Still less than what my expectations had been calibrated for, but way more than what GP is implying!
- mmarq 3y ago
  Today a dev in Barcelona makes as much as a dev in London or slightly less. Considering the cost of living and the quality of life, the dev in Barcelona gets much much more. Among my friends and acquaintances, I’m currently witnessing an exodus from the UK, with people moving to Spain, France, the Netherlands and Germany.
  - shrikant 3y ago
    Agreed on all points you make btw. If I had to contend with the rental market, and didn't already have much of a senior-ish network here in London which is currently keeping my pay well above what I can get anyplace else in the world (except the US), I'd be upping sticks as well.
brtkdotse 3y ago
> European developer to consider because taking a US job Nitpicking, but this is technically not possible. The US company has to have a EU presence or the developer needs to be self employed and invoice the US company
- SXX 3y ago
  There are numerous talent management companies like Deel that handle this for you. Of course technically EU person would be working for EU company in this case. Also no one stoping person living in EU from registering LLC in US and working through that. Corp2corp with own LLC is actually how majority of people from outside the US work with US companies.

littlecranky67 3y ago

> Most senior folks in Spain don't work for Spanish companies in general; they work for EU companies that pay more. I doubt that statement. As a German living in Spain since the pandemic, I dealt with this and my social bubble is full of tech expats dealing with this, too. Living in one EU country and working remotely as an employee for another one, is almost legally impossible, and full of unnecessary hurdles for both employer and employee. Everyone of top-talent grade I know who does this, is basically either self-employed (as I am) or operates a "legal construct" such as having empty "mailbox flats" in the country they work for (breaking all sorts of laws by doing so). The EU itself has never harmonized income tax laws; actually all of the EUs political system always tries not to touch the tax subject at all. As a result, each EU state has an individual double-tax treaty with all other members states. Yes, do the math - there are hundreds tax treaties between EU member states. Non of them are based on some EU guidance or blueprint, and oftentimes older than the EU itself (german-spain treaty dates back mostly to the 1960s with some minor additions in the early 2000s). Finding legal advice alone is almost impossible (i.e. a lawyer that speaks either of your languages and both legal systems recently well). And if you do, good luck, your fellow civil cervant at your tax offices will screw up your fringe case anyways. Worker-protection laws apply by country of residence, but the employer is bound by their national ones too. If you live in Spain and work remotely for a german company, legally you are bound by spanish worker laws. That is, you get spanish bank holidays off, minimum wage laws of Spain (and Germany!) and so forth. Even when figuring out all legal subtleties, it is simply not manageable for any companies HR department to deal with all country specific regulations and changes, let alone in different languages. I run a company myself and could not employ a person from another EU country within reasonable effort; the only way to go is hire them as contractors or through payrolling agencies. Both will not make them your employees, which has a lot of other legal consequences (holidays, employee patent/inventions laws, but also stuff like you can't really enforce any policy on them without going through the intermediaries).

re-thc 3y ago

> Those figures are wrong to be honest. Most senior folks in Spain don't work for Spanish companies in general; they work for EU companies that pay more. Does that contradict those figures though? Are you talking about the upper 10% discussed?

gamesbrainiac 3y ago
From PayScale, the upper is at $50K. You wouldn't even get an average developer for that salary in Barcelona for example.

jacquesm 3y ago

North of $70K is still a ways away from $100K+ and I'd love to see which companies we're talking about here because that's not the news that reaches me from Spain. Rather the opposite.

hef19898 3y ago
Once you accept the fact that single income families don't afford real estate ownership, 70k is easily sufficient for a comfortable life. Again, assuming it is a double income household. It is so for the high price region in Southern Germany around Munich.
pjerem 3y ago
70k in Europe is totally comparable to 100k in US though and is a pretty comfortable salary in Europe. Even if life is a little more expensive in Europe, you don’t need as much emergency savings as in the US.
- 908B64B197 3y ago
  Tax system in Europe is also a lot more complicated with many loopholes. In Belgium, almost every white collar job has a company car included, since it's much much cheaper than for an individual to buy one.
- throwaway6734 3y ago
  I'm not sold on that over the long term. Many western European countries have rough economic outlooks due to their terrible demographics.
- HeyLaughingBoy 3y ago
  > 70k in Europe is totally comparable to 100k in US Where in the US? It's a massive country with a huge regional variation in cost of living.
  - Nanana909 3y ago
    The EU is also vast with huge variations. I think it’s a general, average comparison.

sgt 3y ago

That can't be good for Spain's own IT industry e.g. national companies, or even government agencies wanting to employ senior IT personnel.

gamesbrainiac 3y ago
It isn't. It has pretty much decimated their industry to the point where there are no decent tech companies in Spain, and the few that exist do not pay those local rates (typeform for example).

shrikant 3y ago

Yeah Spain salaries aren't great for devs even by the UK's standards, but GP's numbers seem way too low. About 4 years back I didn't bother proceeding with a couple of (well, two) mid-level engineering positions based out of Barcelona because they paid too low (about €55,000) compared to what I could get in the UK for an equivalent role. One of them was for King, who was still raking it in then, and I can't remember the other organisation. Still less than what my expectations had been calibrated for, but way more than what GP is implying!

mmarq 3y ago
Today a dev in Barcelona makes as much as a dev in London or slightly less. Considering the cost of living and the quality of life, the dev in Barcelona gets much much more. Among my friends and acquaintances, I’m currently witnessing an exodus from the UK, with people moving to Spain, France, the Netherlands and Germany.
- shrikant 3y ago
  Agreed on all points you make btw. If I had to contend with the rental market, and didn't already have much of a senior-ish network here in London which is currently keeping my pay well above what I can get anyplace else in the world (except the US), I'd be upping sticks as well.

brtkdotse 3y ago

> European developer to consider because taking a US job Nitpicking, but this is technically not possible. The US company has to have a EU presence or the developer needs to be self employed and invoice the US company

SXX 3y ago
There are numerous talent management companies like Deel that handle this for you. Of course technically EU person would be working for EU company in this case. Also no one stoping person living in EU from registering LLC in US and working through that. Corp2corp with own LLC is actually how majority of people from outside the US work with US companies.