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People often write in higher level languages because they want lots of bad code fast. Almost all business applications are CRUD apps (create/retrieve/update/des

by jd 18y ago

People often write in higher level languages because they want lots of bad code fast. Almost all business applications are CRUD apps (create/retrieve/update/destroy) with some business logic, and they're generally written in C#. The app may crash when you click the wrong button, but the app is cheap to develop and the programmers are easily replaceable. Of course I'm generalizing, and a lot of C# programmers write great and reliable code. The point is that they often don't -need- to write great code, because lousy code is good enough for all business purposes (except when the software is your product, which is rarely the case). The second issue is that people who choose C for their projects tend to (a) understand low-level concepts, (b) care about speed / memory usage / reliability / dependencies, (c) don't consider development time that important. That you create more reliable software that way is obvious - the same programmers would create reliable software in C# (or similar language). But there aren't many situations in which development speed doesn't matter, speed and memory usage don't matter, dependencies don't matter but, for some reason, reliability is very important.

scott_s 18y ago
I come from the systems research world. I've seen people choose C not for the reasons you mention, but just because it's what they know best. This is not always the best thing to do. One instance is a colleague who needed to do data post-processing, and just did it in C because it was most familiar. A language like Perl or Python would have been a better choice, and saved him time in the long run, since string manipulation in C is tedious and error prone.
- bsaunder 18y ago
  Your colleague may be interested in pcre (perl compatible regular expressions) see http://www.pcre.org http://www.pcre.org But I agree, C isn't the best choice for that task.
lhorn 18y ago
I am not sure why are you bringing enterprise software into the discussion. Despite being the most popular form of employment for "programmers" it has always been the absolutely lowest form of life in a software ecosystem and, therefore, should be ignored and left out of any intelligent discussion about programming. In the 90s it was Visual Basic, now it's Java and C#, but it has absolutely nothing to do with what most of us consider to be discussion worthy.
- jwilliams 18y ago
  > Despite being the most popular form of employment for "programmers" it has always been the absolutely lowest form of life in a software ecosystem It just runs our banks, hospitals, governments... Much better to solely focus on those that write kernels, device drivers and filesystems?
  - lhorn 18y ago
    So? Despite being useful, what's so interesting about CRUD programming for the enterprise? I've been there, I've had my share of dealing with coworkers that openly admit that they haven't touched a single book since graduation 10 years ago and they see no reason why would they want to. That's the kind of programmers this industry attracts, and that's the kind of software it builds. What's so interesting about it? Why even bother mentioning these numerous java/C# jobs? My ex-wife with zero programming experience has trained herself in less than a month to run a simple SQL queries in Visual basic and blast results in a grid control on a form, so did thousands of ex-taxi drivers in late 90s. So?
    - mixmax 18y ago
      I think how interesting it is depends on your interest. If you are heavily into programming, as it seems you are, I can understand that SQL queries seem trivial and boring. If your interest is elsewhere programming is often just a tool used to create the interesting stuff. Whether that is usability, design, getting people to interact in new ways, launching rockets or automatically turning off your garden lights when your computer powers down. Believe it or not there are interesting discussions to be had about other things than programming.
      - jmtulloss 18y ago
        But this article isn't about those things.
    - jwilliams 18y ago
      > My ex-wife with zero programming experience has trained herself in less than a month to run a simple SQL queries in Visual basic and blast results in a grid control on a form, so did thousands of ex-taxi drivers in late 90s. So? To be honest, I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make is. At best it's somewhat of an Ad Hominem attack.
greyman 18y ago
Interesting perspective. I was programming a long time in C, C++ and C#, and I don't feel that programming in C# is easier in some fundamental way, or that C# programmers are easily replaceable. Yes, the mode of thinking is different in each language, but the issue that you have to think carefully is basically the same. ;-)
luckystrike 18y ago
People often write in higher level languages because they want lots of bad code fast. I assume you simply meant programmers who want to churn out something quick prefer high level languages. (Majority of them would never like to write 'bad' code intentionally) Your second assertion is spot on. If one needs to develop a high performing solution optimized for speed and memory consumption, plus high reliability and if it also needs to be reasonably cross platform, one would gravitate towards C. Add to this the established heritage/ecosystem and the tools, and availability of a (relatively) big pool of programmers, C tends to be a good choice. The only con is a relatively longer development cycle. (True only for mortals like me though, some people stream out C code faster than i write an email. :-) )
- nihilocrat 18y ago
  Just do what the gaming industry has been doing for awhile (in various ways).... core libraries / engine in C/C++ with higher-level logic in a higher-level scripting language. This gives you the advantages of a high level language where the extra overhead and consequences for coding a little poorly aren't as detrimental.
  - luckystrike 18y ago
    Yes, we are doing something similar currently. A combination of C & Ruby is working out quite well. (The product is for the Ruby domain so the high level language choice was very straightforward.)
brlewis 18y ago
Yes, lots of bad code fast is half the reason I use Scheme almost exclusively now after 12 years of C. The other half is converting bad code to good code fast.

by jd 18y ago

scott_s 18y ago

I come from the systems research world. I've seen people choose C not for the reasons you mention, but just because it's what they know best. This is not always the best thing to do. One instance is a colleague who needed to do data post-processing, and just did it in C because it was most familiar. A language like Perl or Python would have been a better choice, and saved him time in the long run, since string manipulation in C is tedious and error prone.

bsaunder 18y ago
Your colleague may be interested in pcre (perl compatible regular expressions) see http://www.pcre.org http://www.pcre.org But I agree, C isn't the best choice for that task.

lhorn 18y ago

I am not sure why are you bringing enterprise software into the discussion. Despite being the most popular form of employment for "programmers" it has always been the absolutely lowest form of life in a software ecosystem and, therefore, should be ignored and left out of any intelligent discussion about programming. In the 90s it was Visual Basic, now it's Java and C#, but it has absolutely nothing to do with what most of us consider to be discussion worthy.

jwilliams 18y ago
> Despite being the most popular form of employment for "programmers" it has always been the absolutely lowest form of life in a software ecosystem It just runs our banks, hospitals, governments... Much better to solely focus on those that write kernels, device drivers and filesystems?
- lhorn 18y ago
  So? Despite being useful, what's so interesting about CRUD programming for the enterprise? I've been there, I've had my share of dealing with coworkers that openly admit that they haven't touched a single book since graduation 10 years ago and they see no reason why would they want to. That's the kind of programmers this industry attracts, and that's the kind of software it builds. What's so interesting about it? Why even bother mentioning these numerous java/C# jobs? My ex-wife with zero programming experience has trained herself in less than a month to run a simple SQL queries in Visual basic and blast results in a grid control on a form, so did thousands of ex-taxi drivers in late 90s. So?
  - mixmax 18y ago
    I think how interesting it is depends on your interest. If you are heavily into programming, as it seems you are, I can understand that SQL queries seem trivial and boring. If your interest is elsewhere programming is often just a tool used to create the interesting stuff. Whether that is usability, design, getting people to interact in new ways, launching rockets or automatically turning off your garden lights when your computer powers down. Believe it or not there are interesting discussions to be had about other things than programming.
    - jmtulloss 18y ago
      But this article isn't about those things.
  - jwilliams 18y ago
    > My ex-wife with zero programming experience has trained herself in less than a month to run a simple SQL queries in Visual basic and blast results in a grid control on a form, so did thousands of ex-taxi drivers in late 90s. So? To be honest, I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make is. At best it's somewhat of an Ad Hominem attack.

greyman 18y ago

Interesting perspective. I was programming a long time in C, C++ and C#, and I don't feel that programming in C# is easier in some fundamental way, or that C# programmers are easily replaceable. Yes, the mode of thinking is different in each language, but the issue that you have to think carefully is basically the same. ;-)

luckystrike 18y ago

People often write in higher level languages because they want lots of bad code fast. I assume you simply meant programmers who want to churn out something quick prefer high level languages. (Majority of them would never like to write 'bad' code intentionally) Your second assertion is spot on. If one needs to develop a high performing solution optimized for speed and memory consumption, plus high reliability and if it also needs to be reasonably cross platform, one would gravitate towards C. Add to this the established heritage/ecosystem and the tools, and availability of a (relatively) big pool of programmers, C tends to be a good choice. The only con is a relatively longer development cycle. (True only for mortals like me though, some people stream out C code faster than i write an email. :-) )

nihilocrat 18y ago
Just do what the gaming industry has been doing for awhile (in various ways).... core libraries / engine in C/C++ with higher-level logic in a higher-level scripting language. This gives you the advantages of a high level language where the extra overhead and consequences for coding a little poorly aren't as detrimental.
- luckystrike 18y ago
  Yes, we are doing something similar currently. A combination of C & Ruby is working out quite well. (The product is for the Ruby domain so the high level language choice was very straightforward.)

brlewis 18y ago

Yes, lots of bad code fast is half the reason I use Scheme almost exclusively now after 12 years of C. The other half is converting bad code to good code fast.