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> I understand this is an inevitable consequence of lowering the barrier of entry and making programming more accessible, and it doesn't matter if we're talking

by doix 3y ago

> I understand this is an inevitable consequence of lowering the barrier of entry and making programming more accessible, and it doesn't matter if we're talking about npm, IDEs, programming languages, or anything. Pretty much this. Anybody new to the field will be using an IDE, it's extremely unlikely that someone new will be using vim/emacs. So IDE users will be a mix of newbies and experienced people, but since the field grew so much in recently, the number of newbies using IDEs will outnumber the experienced people using them. In contrast, people using vim/emacs will consist mostly of people with a lot of experience at this point. So the average IDE user will be less experienced than a non-IDE user, but I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that they are using an IDE. I wouldn't attempt to pre-judge anyone's ability based on if they use an IDE or not.

JohnFen 3y ago
> I wouldn't attempt to pre-judge anyone's ability based on if they use an IDE or not. Neither would I, but I will certainly judge them as lacking if they can't write a nontrivial program without using code completion or looking things up on SO/Github/etc.
- lsaferite 3y ago
  > without using code completion or looking things up on SO/Github/etc. Does this arbitrary bar extend to language and library documentation as well?
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Of course not, and the bar isn't arbitrary. That you ask this tells me that I was insufficiently clear as to my stance. My stance is that programmers should understand how to write programs, not just copy/paste them together.
    - lsaferite 3y ago
      Thanks for the clarification. I certainly have way too much in my head to remember every nuance of several languages. As such, I lean heavily on multiple sources of external documentation to help me recall the specifics. That being said, this would in no way replace actual software development expertise, so I agree with your clarified stance. I find using a good IDE with code completion and navigation is essential to efficient use of my time. I _also_ use vi constantly and perform most every other operation from the command line. I know I can get the same from properly setting up vi with the right plugins, but I find the ergonomics less appealing for my habits.

by doix 3y ago

JohnFen 3y ago

> I wouldn't attempt to pre-judge anyone's ability based on if they use an IDE or not. Neither would I, but I will certainly judge them as lacking if they can't write a nontrivial program without using code completion or looking things up on SO/Github/etc.

lsaferite 3y ago
> without using code completion or looking things up on SO/Github/etc. Does this arbitrary bar extend to language and library documentation as well?
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Of course not, and the bar isn't arbitrary. That you ask this tells me that I was insufficiently clear as to my stance. My stance is that programmers should understand how to write programs, not just copy/paste them together.
  - lsaferite 3y ago
    Thanks for the clarification. I certainly have way too much in my head to remember every nuance of several languages. As such, I lean heavily on multiple sources of external documentation to help me recall the specifics. That being said, this would in no way replace actual software development expertise, so I agree with your clarified stance. I find using a good IDE with code completion and navigation is essential to efficient use of my time. I _also_ use vi constantly and perform most every other operation from the command line. I know I can get the same from properly setting up vi with the right plugins, but I find the ergonomics less appealing for my habits.