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You might not want them in your team maybe, but isn’t it really cool we reached a state where you can actually do this? Democratization of software engineering

You might not want them in your team maybe, but isn’t it really cool we reached a state where you can actually do this? Democratization of software engineering is a great good!

marginalia_nu 3y ago
Dunno if it actually is democratizing software engineering. Looks more like a cargo cult to me. You get a second class of developers that don't quite get it. Not because they aren't capable, but because nobody shared the secrets with them and they had to piece together everything from flotsam.
- toast0 3y ago
  Cargo cult programming is a starting point. Plenty of people won't go any further, but when what you're putting together is all source code, it's mostly transparent boxes you're putting together. You can look inside and see the secrets whenever you want, if you ever want. Sure, maybe there's some design principles to share that aren't obvious. But it's hard to share and teach those before someone has experience with at least putting stuff together. Also, it's not like there are principles that are universally accepted or universally applied by trained software engineers.
  - marginalia_nu 3y ago
    I'd say it's more the opposite. What characterizes cargo cult development is having too many principles and rules, rather than lacking them, they're rules without any real understanding of why they exist and what they're for or when they're applicable. As long as you adhere to the strictures, good code emerges somehow. The way to bring a cargo cult developer into the light typically involves debunking or contextualizing a whole bunch of weird ideas.
    - toast0 3y ago
      Maybe you and I have a different definition of cargo cult developers than I do. I'm thinking cut and paste from stack overflow (or now chatGPT) without much understanding or consistency. Knowing how to apply design principles and rules despite not fully understanding them is a different level, in my mind.
BigJono 3y ago
Democratization of software engineering means giving everyone the opportunity to learn. Not handing them a black box with a few instructions then sending them off to plow head first into a brick wall of insurmountable knowledge gaps so they give up.
- threatofrain 3y ago
  Democratization of software means that more people than ever can make things. This is absolutely the case with software today. We have kids creating games with drag-and-drop visual programming languages. One developer can get a worthy full-stack prototype in front of an investor in a month (or less!), and these stories are gaining steam. Soon we may have no-code solutions getting good enough to warrant broader adoption. No-code solutions are as black box as you can get, and it's also as anti-learning as you can get in terms of the underlying technology and its theoretical principles. But this is also an example of more people than ever making things.
  - pjc50 3y ago
    Someone wrote "if people are using your tool to turn out a lot of half-baked garbage, then your tool is a huge success", which really reframed my view on these things. It was originally in the context of one of the "game maker" tools, but applies to any kind of simplification. A tool which only allows perfect solutions by perfect users is one that rejects a lot of work and prevents a huge number of projects from ever happening at all. Useful for safety-critical work, but not everything is safety-critical.
re-thc 3y ago
> but isn’t it really cool we reached a state where you can actually do this As in be a terrorist and produce bombs? These are all ticking time bombs.
JohnFen 3y ago
Is it a great good if it reduces the quality of what our industry produces?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

You might not want them in your team maybe, but isn’t it really cool we reached a state where you can actually do this? Democratization of software engineering is a great good!

marginalia_nu 3y ago

Dunno if it actually is democratizing software engineering. Looks more like a cargo cult to me. You get a second class of developers that don't quite get it. Not because they aren't capable, but because nobody shared the secrets with them and they had to piece together everything from flotsam.

toast0 3y ago
Cargo cult programming is a starting point. Plenty of people won't go any further, but when what you're putting together is all source code, it's mostly transparent boxes you're putting together. You can look inside and see the secrets whenever you want, if you ever want. Sure, maybe there's some design principles to share that aren't obvious. But it's hard to share and teach those before someone has experience with at least putting stuff together. Also, it's not like there are principles that are universally accepted or universally applied by trained software engineers.
- marginalia_nu 3y ago
  I'd say it's more the opposite. What characterizes cargo cult development is having too many principles and rules, rather than lacking them, they're rules without any real understanding of why they exist and what they're for or when they're applicable. As long as you adhere to the strictures, good code emerges somehow. The way to bring a cargo cult developer into the light typically involves debunking or contextualizing a whole bunch of weird ideas.
  - toast0 3y ago
    Maybe you and I have a different definition of cargo cult developers than I do. I'm thinking cut and paste from stack overflow (or now chatGPT) without much understanding or consistency. Knowing how to apply design principles and rules despite not fully understanding them is a different level, in my mind.

BigJono 3y ago

Democratization of software engineering means giving everyone the opportunity to learn. Not handing them a black box with a few instructions then sending them off to plow head first into a brick wall of insurmountable knowledge gaps so they give up.

threatofrain 3y ago
Democratization of software means that more people than ever can make things. This is absolutely the case with software today. We have kids creating games with drag-and-drop visual programming languages. One developer can get a worthy full-stack prototype in front of an investor in a month (or less!), and these stories are gaining steam. Soon we may have no-code solutions getting good enough to warrant broader adoption. No-code solutions are as black box as you can get, and it's also as anti-learning as you can get in terms of the underlying technology and its theoretical principles. But this is also an example of more people than ever making things.
- pjc50 3y ago
  Someone wrote "if people are using your tool to turn out a lot of half-baked garbage, then your tool is a huge success", which really reframed my view on these things. It was originally in the context of one of the "game maker" tools, but applies to any kind of simplification. A tool which only allows perfect solutions by perfect users is one that rejects a lot of work and prevents a huge number of projects from ever happening at all. Useful for safety-critical work, but not everything is safety-critical.

re-thc 3y ago

> but isn’t it really cool we reached a state where you can actually do this As in be a terrorist and produce bombs? These are all ticking time bombs.

JohnFen 3y ago

Is it a great good if it reduces the quality of what our industry produces?

deleted 3y ago

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