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Unhelpful trolling. Xcode is buggy. As dev-facing software that's undergoing a cycle of rapid change, it's not as clean as everyone would like it to be. I'm not

Unhelpful trolling. Xcode is buggy. As dev-facing software that's undergoing a cycle of rapid change, it's not as clean as everyone would like it to be. I'm not convinced it could be much cleaner at the rate they're changing things. And IB has always handled labels with long blocks of text badly. That's because they're not supposed to hold long blocks of text, they're supposed to hold labels.

_debug_ 15y ago
I'm not being rigorous here, but it seems to me that the top comment on every HN article that points out anything wrong with an Apple product is by an Apple apologist? It's a bit...fawning.
- gjm11 15y ago
  The obvious solution would be for people who aren't Apple apologists to write better comments on such articles.
  - jasonlotito 15y ago
    You make the assumption that the quality of comments has any bearing on placement. Simply put: it does not.
- tvon 15y ago
  You certainly can't get far without someone playing the "apologist" or "fanboy" card. This is annoying because you are presenting no argument or evidence, you're just saying "this person's opinion is bullshit because of the apparent side they have chosen". I don't see what value that adds, it just dumbs down the entire conversation.
  - _debug_ 15y ago
    > you're just saying "this person's opinion is bullshit because of the apparent side they have chosen" Firstly, that is not what I tried to say. I tried to say, "There's a whole bunch of Apple-apologist-upvoters", and for this... > you are presenting no argument or evidence ...I did present evidence : the comment is the top comment, which means it was upvoted, eh? I'm not arguing against Apple, but pointing out the prevalance of fawning brand-loyal upvoters.
cageface 15y ago
In over 13 years of coding I've never used a tool as buggy and crash-prone as XCode 4. I swear at it on a daily basis. I think they're mostly going in the right direction with the feature set but the fact that it's still this unstable after three point releases undermines my confidence in the underlying code base.
- reidmain 15y ago
  Have you been upgrading your Xcode installations or starting from scratch? I got my Mac in 2010 and was having major Xcode problems with 4.x but I had to nuke my computer when 10.7.2 came out and I've had almost no problems since then with a fresh Xcode 4.2 install. Not trying to apologize for Apple, Xcode does seem to have some serious problems, but figured I'd throw out how I "solved" my problems.
  - mikeash 15y ago
    As of 4.3, Xcode is a self-contained app, so this can no longer apply. I haven't heard that 4.3 or 4.4 are behaving much better in this regard. I've also used more than one fresh 4.2 install which was terribly unstable.
    - reidmain 15y ago
      That's unfortunate. I'd be interested in knowing how many people at Apple actually use Xcode daily (and how many of those are the developers who actually work on Xcode). Apple has grown a lot in recent years and I'm sure a lot of the new blood grew up on Xcode 3 but I've heard from friends that a lot of the old guard at Apple continue to use things like emacs/vim.
cbs 15y ago
As dev-facing software [...] What difference does this make? Or should we as developers be so used to getting shit on by apple that we stop expecting better?
- MaysonL 15y ago
  As dev-facing software undergoing a cycle of rapid change
napierzaza 15y ago
It's funny how people who hate Apple still exist. The only change is that they are now developing for Apple products. Like this guy who was developing in Java for 9 years? I'm sure there were no problems there.
mikeash 15y ago
Maybe they shouldn't change things so fast, then. I'd rather have a stable tool than one full of new features that is unstable and hard to use.
deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
gaius 15y ago
Isn't Xcode developed with Xcode? One of the reasons MS Visual Studio has always been so pleasant to use is that the devs eat their own dogfood.
- mikeash 15y ago
  Xcode is indeed developed with Xcode, a fact which has astonished me for years. I can't comprehend how they've let some of these things happen given that they have to use the thing every day.

_debug_ 15y ago

I'm not being rigorous here, but it seems to me that the top comment on every HN article that points out anything wrong with an Apple product is by an Apple apologist? It's a bit...fawning.

gjm11 15y ago
The obvious solution would be for people who aren't Apple apologists to write better comments on such articles.
- jasonlotito 15y ago
  You make the assumption that the quality of comments has any bearing on placement. Simply put: it does not.
tvon 15y ago
You certainly can't get far without someone playing the "apologist" or "fanboy" card. This is annoying because you are presenting no argument or evidence, you're just saying "this person's opinion is bullshit because of the apparent side they have chosen". I don't see what value that adds, it just dumbs down the entire conversation.
- _debug_ 15y ago
  > you're just saying "this person's opinion is bullshit because of the apparent side they have chosen" Firstly, that is not what I tried to say. I tried to say, "There's a whole bunch of Apple-apologist-upvoters", and for this... > you are presenting no argument or evidence ...I did present evidence : the comment is the top comment, which means it was upvoted, eh? I'm not arguing against Apple, but pointing out the prevalance of fawning brand-loyal upvoters.

cageface 15y ago

In over 13 years of coding I've never used a tool as buggy and crash-prone as XCode 4. I swear at it on a daily basis. I think they're mostly going in the right direction with the feature set but the fact that it's still this unstable after three point releases undermines my confidence in the underlying code base.

reidmain 15y ago
Have you been upgrading your Xcode installations or starting from scratch? I got my Mac in 2010 and was having major Xcode problems with 4.x but I had to nuke my computer when 10.7.2 came out and I've had almost no problems since then with a fresh Xcode 4.2 install. Not trying to apologize for Apple, Xcode does seem to have some serious problems, but figured I'd throw out how I "solved" my problems.
- mikeash 15y ago
  As of 4.3, Xcode is a self-contained app, so this can no longer apply. I haven't heard that 4.3 or 4.4 are behaving much better in this regard. I've also used more than one fresh 4.2 install which was terribly unstable.
  - reidmain 15y ago
    That's unfortunate. I'd be interested in knowing how many people at Apple actually use Xcode daily (and how many of those are the developers who actually work on Xcode). Apple has grown a lot in recent years and I'm sure a lot of the new blood grew up on Xcode 3 but I've heard from friends that a lot of the old guard at Apple continue to use things like emacs/vim.

cbs 15y ago

As dev-facing software [...] What difference does this make? Or should we as developers be so used to getting shit on by apple that we stop expecting better?

MaysonL 15y ago
As dev-facing software undergoing a cycle of rapid change

napierzaza 15y ago

It's funny how people who hate Apple still exist. The only change is that they are now developing for Apple products. Like this guy who was developing in Java for 9 years? I'm sure there were no problems there.

mikeash 15y ago

Maybe they shouldn't change things so fast, then. I'd rather have a stable tool than one full of new features that is unstable and hard to use.

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

gaius 15y ago

Isn't Xcode developed with Xcode? One of the reasons MS Visual Studio has always been so pleasant to use is that the devs eat their own dogfood.

mikeash 15y ago
Xcode is indeed developed with Xcode, a fact which has astonished me for years. I can't comprehend how they've let some of these things happen given that they have to use the thing every day.