4 ms·

Most of the predictions of the negative aspects of globalization from the 90s came true, specifically, about the hollowing out of working class jobs, the polari

Most of the predictions of the negative aspects of globalization from the 90s came true, specifically, about the hollowing out of working class jobs, the polarization that would result, and the erosion of western values to accomodate the despots we trade with. I was against globalization then because it was just a way for governments to collude with one another to dilute their accountability to their national constituents. Today, these governments literally import voters and distribute them throughout their country to prop up their political parties in contested areas because natural citizens don't vote for the looting and demolitions of their own societies. Globalization just became "globalism," and remains a cynically anti-democratic and anti-nation state movement that is the expression of a totalitarian urge. It is not reversing, but its growth has taken a brief break. Its architects know it is going to cause conflict, and judging by what we saw of them in the first few rounds, I suspect they are only resting and organizing for the next phase.

jamilton 3y ago
>the erosion of western values to accomodate the despots we trade with What do you mean by this? > Today, these governments literally import voters and distribute them throughout their country to prop up their political parties in contested areas because natural citizens don't vote for the looting and demolitions of their own societies What governments are you referring to?
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- cataphract 3y ago
  > What governments are you referring to? Even glossing over the latent xenophobia in the commentary, let's just think if this makes any sense. You need to specifically allow immigrants in that will gote for you, they'll have to wait 5 or more years to become naturalized citizen and at the end... naturalized citizens typically vote at much lower rates than the native born. Not a great plan. Much easier to suppress voters or kick out those that won't vote for you. See Jim Crow, or the expulsion of the Arab population of Israel before and after the 1948 war (without which Israel wouldn't even be viable as a Jewish state).
- stcroixx 3y ago
  China has concentration camps. Western values say this is bad, yet we are willing to overlook them so we can have economic relationships with China. Saudi Arabia, similar.
  - jamilton 3y ago
    I would not say those are examples of western values being eroded, they seem more like examples of economic relationships between countries being detached from the values of their populaces. The values themselves in these cases are relatively unchanged.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
akomtu 3y ago
Globalisation is one of the ideas where interests of both sides are aligned. The good ones want globalisation to get rid of nation-states: those war machines that only excel at oppressing peoples. The evil ones want globalization to build a planet-scale tyranny, a rule-based society that nobody can escape: such a tyranny can employ ways of oppression that aren't possible today, as it no longer needs to think about competition with other nations.
altcom123 3y ago
> Today, these governments literally import voters and distribute them throughout their country to prop up their political parties in contested areas because natural citizens don't vote for the looting and demolitions of their own societies. Is this America specific?
- orangepurple 3y ago
  Germany, France, Italy, UK, and the USA https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/11/13/four-countries-account-for-the-majority-of-europes-unauthorized-immigrant-population/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/11/13/four-countries...
  - debo_ 3y ago
    I didn't understand how this link related to the argument. It's about the growth of unauthorized immigrant populations, who cannot vote.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - orangepurple 3y ago
      [flagged]
drivebycomment 3y ago
> Today, these governments literally import voters and distribute them throughout their country to prop up their political parties in contested areas because natural citizens don't vote for the looting and demolitions of their own societies. This can be read as a disguised racism and a conspiracy theory, unless you can provide data and evidence. Which governments and how/when/where/how many they "import" voters and get them vote for their policy ?
- ashirviskas 3y ago
  >This can be read as a disguised racism and a conspiracy theory, unless you can provide data and evidence. Which governments and how/when/where/how many they "import" voters and get them vote for their policy ? I don't fully agree with the implied sentiment of the parent commenter, but as for real world examples just look at Russia and their puppet/occupied states and territories. Russia seems to conveniently import their citizens to other countries and cause looting/destruction/chaos/war using them as a pretext. Specific instances of this happening: - Crimea in 2014 - Transnistria in 1992 - South Ossetia and Abkhazia in 2008
danans 3y ago
> Today, these governments literally import voters and distribute them throughout their country to prop up their political parties in contested areas because natural citizens don't vote for the looting and demolitions of their own societies. That's sounds like nothing more than a poorly disguised attempt to attach Renaud Camus' White Replacement Theory [1] to the legitimate concerns about how globalization has hollowed out of the Western manufacturing base and the jobs it supported. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement
- motohagiography 3y ago
  While I did not know someone has used related ideas in a very different and pre-existing agenda, I can't take hyperbolic accusations of racism seriously anymore. They aren't intellectually serious or sincere. I would be surprised if it were controversial at all that immigration is widely recognized as all of: a) a policy tool. b) an economic management tool. c) a demographic management tool. d) a populaiton management tool. e) a strategic political tool. In the cases of Mexico, Libya, and France/EU managing the flow of irregular immigration has historically been a diplomatic and geopolitical tool. The impetus behind the former US admins border wall was because the government of Mexico was using migrant caravans as a diplomatic negotiating lever. Libya's former dictatorship was tolerated by the west because it stabilized the region and limited African migration to Europe. Migrants have always been horribly exploited by their own governments and those of host countries, and using them as political tools is part of why. In the case of Canada, regular and irregular immigration are not really distinguished (as to say someone is illegal is uncouth) and there is an explicit and public federal policy to settle people in rural regions, and in political ridings (districts) where the election margins to win a parliamentary seat are in the single digit thousands. Thinking that policy is cynical and unethical is not racist, and the accusation is a bad faith argument.
  - danans 3y ago
    > While I did not know someone has used related ideas in a very different and pre-existing agenda, I can't take hyperbolic accusations of racism seriously anymore. If you didn't know about it, then you haven't been paying attention. Replacement Theory has been promoted by ethno-nationalist media personalities like Tucker Carlson (who hosted the highest viewership cable news show), and also directly cited by recent perpetrator some of mass murder against immigrants and minorities (Tree of Life synagogue, El Paso Walmart, etc). Both are high visibility and high impact. Replacement theory is not at all obscure at this point.
hgs3 3y ago
I agree, but I don't see globalism as a recent phenomenon. In the United States the bourgeoisie has been importing labor since the countries inception, whether it was the slave trade, the railroads, the industrial revolution, or guest worker visas. They've been constantly shipping in folks and dividing the locales. Today their favorite tactic for dividing folks is using social shaming, i.e. calling you a xenophobic. You can see this manufactured in-fighting in this very thread. We need to call out this subversion, unite as labor, and fight the real enemy.
wittycardio 3y ago
[dead]

jamilton 3y ago

>the erosion of western values to accomodate the despots we trade with What do you mean by this? > Today, these governments literally import voters and distribute them throughout their country to prop up their political parties in contested areas because natural citizens don't vote for the looting and demolitions of their own societies What governments are you referring to?

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
cataphract 3y ago
> What governments are you referring to? Even glossing over the latent xenophobia in the commentary, let's just think if this makes any sense. You need to specifically allow immigrants in that will gote for you, they'll have to wait 5 or more years to become naturalized citizen and at the end... naturalized citizens typically vote at much lower rates than the native born. Not a great plan. Much easier to suppress voters or kick out those that won't vote for you. See Jim Crow, or the expulsion of the Arab population of Israel before and after the 1948 war (without which Israel wouldn't even be viable as a Jewish state).
stcroixx 3y ago
China has concentration camps. Western values say this is bad, yet we are willing to overlook them so we can have economic relationships with China. Saudi Arabia, similar.
- jamilton 3y ago
  I would not say those are examples of western values being eroded, they seem more like examples of economic relationships between countries being detached from the values of their populaces. The values themselves in these cases are relatively unchanged.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

akomtu 3y ago

Globalisation is one of the ideas where interests of both sides are aligned. The good ones want globalisation to get rid of nation-states: those war machines that only excel at oppressing peoples. The evil ones want globalization to build a planet-scale tyranny, a rule-based society that nobody can escape: such a tyranny can employ ways of oppression that aren't possible today, as it no longer needs to think about competition with other nations.

altcom123 3y ago

orangepurple 3y ago
Germany, France, Italy, UK, and the USA https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/11/13/four-countries-account-for-the-majority-of-europes-unauthorized-immigrant-population/ https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2019/11/13/four-countries...
- debo_ 3y ago
  I didn't understand how this link related to the argument. It's about the growth of unauthorized immigrant populations, who cannot vote.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - orangepurple 3y ago
    [flagged]

drivebycomment 3y ago

> Today, these governments literally import voters and distribute them throughout their country to prop up their political parties in contested areas because natural citizens don't vote for the looting and demolitions of their own societies. This can be read as a disguised racism and a conspiracy theory, unless you can provide data and evidence. Which governments and how/when/where/how many they "import" voters and get them vote for their policy ?

ashirviskas 3y ago
>This can be read as a disguised racism and a conspiracy theory, unless you can provide data and evidence. Which governments and how/when/where/how many they "import" voters and get them vote for their policy ? I don't fully agree with the implied sentiment of the parent commenter, but as for real world examples just look at Russia and their puppet/occupied states and territories. Russia seems to conveniently import their citizens to other countries and cause looting/destruction/chaos/war using them as a pretext. Specific instances of this happening: - Crimea in 2014 - Transnistria in 1992 - South Ossetia and Abkhazia in 2008

danans 3y ago

> Today, these governments literally import voters and distribute them throughout their country to prop up their political parties in contested areas because natural citizens don't vote for the looting and demolitions of their own societies. That's sounds like nothing more than a poorly disguised attempt to attach Renaud Camus' White Replacement Theory [1] to the legitimate concerns about how globalization has hollowed out of the Western manufacturing base and the jobs it supported. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Replacement

motohagiography 3y ago
While I did not know someone has used related ideas in a very different and pre-existing agenda, I can't take hyperbolic accusations of racism seriously anymore. They aren't intellectually serious or sincere. I would be surprised if it were controversial at all that immigration is widely recognized as all of: a) a policy tool. b) an economic management tool. c) a demographic management tool. d) a populaiton management tool. e) a strategic political tool. In the cases of Mexico, Libya, and France/EU managing the flow of irregular immigration has historically been a diplomatic and geopolitical tool. The impetus behind the former US admins border wall was because the government of Mexico was using migrant caravans as a diplomatic negotiating lever. Libya's former dictatorship was tolerated by the west because it stabilized the region and limited African migration to Europe. Migrants have always been horribly exploited by their own governments and those of host countries, and using them as political tools is part of why. In the case of Canada, regular and irregular immigration are not really distinguished (as to say someone is illegal is uncouth) and there is an explicit and public federal policy to settle people in rural regions, and in political ridings (districts) where the election margins to win a parliamentary seat are in the single digit thousands. Thinking that policy is cynical and unethical is not racist, and the accusation is a bad faith argument.
- danans 3y ago
  > While I did not know someone has used related ideas in a very different and pre-existing agenda, I can't take hyperbolic accusations of racism seriously anymore. If you didn't know about it, then you haven't been paying attention. Replacement Theory has been promoted by ethno-nationalist media personalities like Tucker Carlson (who hosted the highest viewership cable news show), and also directly cited by recent perpetrator some of mass murder against immigrants and minorities (Tree of Life synagogue, El Paso Walmart, etc). Both are high visibility and high impact. Replacement theory is not at all obscure at this point.

hgs3 3y ago

I agree, but I don't see globalism as a recent phenomenon. In the United States the bourgeoisie has been importing labor since the countries inception, whether it was the slave trade, the railroads, the industrial revolution, or guest worker visas. They've been constantly shipping in folks and dividing the locales. Today their favorite tactic for dividing folks is using social shaming, i.e. calling you a xenophobic. You can see this manufactured in-fighting in this very thread. We need to call out this subversion, unite as labor, and fight the real enemy.

wittycardio 3y ago

[dead]