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Look at a map of China. See the bit that sticks out to the east, toward Japan and Korea? That's the Shandong peninsula. At the western (inland) end of that is Q

Look at a map of China. See the bit that sticks out to the east, toward Japan and Korea? That's the Shandong peninsula. At the western (inland) end of that is Qufu, where Confucius was born. Japan and Korea were influenced by Confucianism, as was Vietnam. This is the source of the English phrase "filial piety" with regard to East Asian cultures. India is a totally different beast. Source: Studied ancient Chinese history with an interest in broader Asian history and ancient philosophy. Lived in the region 20+ years. Have visited all of those countries and places. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confucianism

dheera 3y ago
"The western term filial piety was originally derived from studies of Western societies, based on Mediterranean cultures." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety Vast portions of the world have some concept of filial piety, it is a local optimum for society in the absence of technology and modern conveniences, that so many cultures naturally converged on it. Go ask some Hispanics, South Asians, Southeast Asians, they all have some version of it that is really not far from the Confucian version. The big value shift happening now is that in a modern technological society, having children is optional, a personal choice, so parents are now expected to provide for the child if they make the choice to bring one into existence, without expecting anything in return. In the past, having a child was a necessity for the sustainability of the country (and even species, to a great extent) at large, so it was done by all, even parents who could not provide, so filial piety was the only way it could be sustained.
- worrycue 3y ago
  > In the past, having a child was a necessity for the sustainability of the country I would argue it still is now unless you patch things with immigration (but that's just having another country do the work for you) or AGI becomes a thing.
- contingencies 3y ago
  Sigh. Re-read what I wrote. You appear to be arguing with a straw man.
  - witchesindublin 3y ago
    As someone who actually lives in Japan for over a decade, you are wrong about the idea that the filal piety in East Asia comes from China. It is common but incorrect of many Chinese to overstate their impact on East Asia, but in reality the Chinese have had little impact on Japan and most of South East Asia (except for Vietnam) until recent immigration of Chinese in the last century.
    - zztop44 3y ago
      I also live in Japan. I disagree with your take. I think the Chinese influence on Japan has been massive and enduring. I am not Chinese. Being long term residents of Japan doesn’t make either of us experts on this matter. We’re just two people who have interpreted our experiences differently. I understand you feel strongly about this (I also often find myself jumping to correct what I consider to be misconceptions about Japan, so I kind of get it) but I think you’re overstating your opinion in this thread right now.
      - witchesindublin 3y ago
        I also studied Asian history in Asia. I am aware that a lot of Americans who study Asian history study it from an Sinocentric viewpoint, but overlook how the rest of Asia actually developed. I strongly disagree about Chinese influence on Japan. I agree about the Chinese influence on Korea and Vietnam, but to call it the "Greece of Asia" is laughable at best.
- rayiner 3y ago
  > In the past, having a child was a necessity for the sustainability of the country (and even species, to a great extent) at large, so it was done by all, even parents who could not provide, so filial piety was the only way it could be sustained. It’s still true. No society can sustainably go below a total fertility rate of 2.1. They can engage in temporary arbitrage, by importing people from societies that haven’t yet undergone that “value shift,” but that’s a band-aid. The math will catch up with those groups and they’ll be replaced by groups that still prioritize reproduction. For example, by 2050, the number of Catholics and Muslims is projected to increase greatly, while the share of the population that’s not affiliated with religion will actually drop 3 percentage points (despite the rapid dechristianization of the US and Europe): https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/12/25/460797744/a-religious-forecast-for-2050-atheism-is-down-islam-is-rising https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/12/25/4607977...
  - Freedom2 3y ago
    What recent reports have there been? It's arguable that report from 2015 might not be the best source. Now that proper American values are making their way into libraries, Christianity should boom, wouldn't you agree?
witchesindublin 3y ago
That isn't actually that true for Japan and most of South East Asia. It's only the greater China region, Vietnam and Korea where Confucianism was a big thing.
- consilient 3y ago
  This is not at all true: the Tokugawas heavily patronized neo-Confucianism.
  - witchesindublin 3y ago
    But the relative impact has been pretty low, and its relevance to Japanese cultural development is also very low. Neo-Confucianism was mostly evident in South Korean culture, less in China, and basically down to very little in Japan.
    - vctrm67 3y ago
      ...what? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_neo-Confucianism#:~:text=Neo%2DConfucianism%20reached%20Japan%20during,the%20universe%20and%20the%20individual https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_neo-Confucianism#:~:text....
      - filoleg 3y ago
        Don't bother much, that user just replies with "but the relative impact is low" to some of the most well-supported and obvious examples in this thread that argue presence of significant historical influence of imperial China on the region. In your case it was about confucianism, in one other, it was about kanji[0]. 0. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36118362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36118362
        witchesindublin 3y ago
        I also studied Asian history as well, but I studied it in Asia. I often come across a lot of Americans who study Asian history from a Sinocentric viewpoint which is why I write strongly on the matter.

dheera 3y ago

"The western term filial piety was originally derived from studies of Western societies, based on Mediterranean cultures." Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filial_piety Vast portions of the world have some concept of filial piety, it is a local optimum for society in the absence of technology and modern conveniences, that so many cultures naturally converged on it. Go ask some Hispanics, South Asians, Southeast Asians, they all have some version of it that is really not far from the Confucian version. The big value shift happening now is that in a modern technological society, having children is optional, a personal choice, so parents are now expected to provide for the child if they make the choice to bring one into existence, without expecting anything in return. In the past, having a child was a necessity for the sustainability of the country (and even species, to a great extent) at large, so it was done by all, even parents who could not provide, so filial piety was the only way it could be sustained.

worrycue 3y ago
> In the past, having a child was a necessity for the sustainability of the country I would argue it still is now unless you patch things with immigration (but that's just having another country do the work for you) or AGI becomes a thing.
contingencies 3y ago
Sigh. Re-read what I wrote. You appear to be arguing with a straw man.
- witchesindublin 3y ago
  As someone who actually lives in Japan for over a decade, you are wrong about the idea that the filal piety in East Asia comes from China. It is common but incorrect of many Chinese to overstate their impact on East Asia, but in reality the Chinese have had little impact on Japan and most of South East Asia (except for Vietnam) until recent immigration of Chinese in the last century.
  - zztop44 3y ago
    I also live in Japan. I disagree with your take. I think the Chinese influence on Japan has been massive and enduring. I am not Chinese. Being long term residents of Japan doesn’t make either of us experts on this matter. We’re just two people who have interpreted our experiences differently. I understand you feel strongly about this (I also often find myself jumping to correct what I consider to be misconceptions about Japan, so I kind of get it) but I think you’re overstating your opinion in this thread right now.
    - witchesindublin 3y ago
      I also studied Asian history in Asia. I am aware that a lot of Americans who study Asian history study it from an Sinocentric viewpoint, but overlook how the rest of Asia actually developed. I strongly disagree about Chinese influence on Japan. I agree about the Chinese influence on Korea and Vietnam, but to call it the "Greece of Asia" is laughable at best.
rayiner 3y ago
> In the past, having a child was a necessity for the sustainability of the country (and even species, to a great extent) at large, so it was done by all, even parents who could not provide, so filial piety was the only way it could be sustained. It’s still true. No society can sustainably go below a total fertility rate of 2.1. They can engage in temporary arbitrage, by importing people from societies that haven’t yet undergone that “value shift,” but that’s a band-aid. The math will catch up with those groups and they’ll be replaced by groups that still prioritize reproduction. For example, by 2050, the number of Catholics and Muslims is projected to increase greatly, while the share of the population that’s not affiliated with religion will actually drop 3 percentage points (despite the rapid dechristianization of the US and Europe): https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/12/25/460797744/a-religious-forecast-for-2050-atheism-is-down-islam-is-rising https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2015/12/25/4607977...
- Freedom2 3y ago
  What recent reports have there been? It's arguable that report from 2015 might not be the best source. Now that proper American values are making their way into libraries, Christianity should boom, wouldn't you agree?

witchesindublin 3y ago

That isn't actually that true for Japan and most of South East Asia. It's only the greater China region, Vietnam and Korea where Confucianism was a big thing.

consilient 3y ago
This is not at all true: the Tokugawas heavily patronized neo-Confucianism.
- witchesindublin 3y ago
  But the relative impact has been pretty low, and its relevance to Japanese cultural development is also very low. Neo-Confucianism was mostly evident in South Korean culture, less in China, and basically down to very little in Japan.
  - vctrm67 3y ago
    ...what? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_neo-Confucianism#:~:text=Neo%2DConfucianism%20reached%20Japan%20during,the%20universe%20and%20the%20individual https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edo_neo-Confucianism#:~:text....
    - filoleg 3y ago
      Don't bother much, that user just replies with "but the relative impact is low" to some of the most well-supported and obvious examples in this thread that argue presence of significant historical influence of imperial China on the region. In your case it was about confucianism, in one other, it was about kanji[0]. 0. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36118362 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36118362
      - witchesindublin 3y ago
        I also studied Asian history as well, but I studied it in Asia. I often come across a lot of Americans who study Asian history from a Sinocentric viewpoint which is why I write strongly on the matter.