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> but it looks like it's something like "banner divided in yellow (towards the flagpole) and white https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Vatican_City https://e
by Someone 3y ago
> but it looks like it's something like "banner divided in yellow (towards the flagpole) and white
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Vatican_City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flag_of_Vatican_City says “A vertical bicolour of gold and white”.
I would have thought that should be gold and silver (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture_(heraldry) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture_(heraldry)), but (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture_(heraldry)#Other_tinctures https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture_(heraldry)#Other_tinc...) “The heraldic scholar A. C. Fox-Davies proposed that, in some circumstances, white should be considered a heraldic colour, distinct from argent”, so who knows? Maybe it is gold and white.
Edit: https://www.vaticanstate.va/it/stato-governo/note-generali/bandiera.html https://www.vaticanstate.va/it/stato-governo/note-generali/b... says “un drappo bipartito di giallo (verso l’asta) e di bianco”, so the Vatican itself says it’s yellow and white.
(Interestingly, there’s a convention for converting those colors to monochrome: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture_(heraldry)#Monochromatic_presentation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tincture_(heraldry)#Monochroma...)
- addaon 3y ago> Maybe it is gold and white. Yeah. In general, the first rule of heraldry ("metal should not be placed upon metal, nor color upon color") trumps the convention of "use standard heraldric colors." Gold touching silver violates the first rule; gold touching white violates only convention.
- bboygravity 3y agok thanks, now I want to know what official flag breaks/broke the most of those rules and conventions :p
- addaon 3y agoEh, rules are meant to be broken. And keep in mind these are at best European rules -- and even then, certain areas (England!) took them more seriously than others. There's also a lot of rules lawyering possible. e.g. red doesn't touch black on the German flag, because that would violate the first rule; instead, the field (background) is half black and half gold (color touching metal, fine), and the red stripe is on top of this field, totally legal, wink wink. That said, trying to follow these rules has led to some strange decisions; e.g. it's interesting to look into (some unverified stories about) why the US flag has white (silver, metal) stripes on a red background, while the US seal has red stripes on a white background.
- labster 3y agoI thought that red didn’t touch black in the German flag, it touches sable, which is a fur. And furs can be placed on metal or color. … yeah, rules lawyering.
- addaon 3y agoYeah; in most of Western Europe sable is a color, but apparently in Germany and parts east it's considered a fur...
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- grt_thr 3y agoFor secular states. The coat of arms of the Kingdom of Jerusalem used gold on silver. The coat of arms of the papacy on the other hand is not the flag so they can do whatever they feel like there.
- kixiQu 3y agoIntentional in context, though – gold and silver allowed on each other for the Church and Jerusalem... and green frogs on red for Satan! (https://old.reddit.com/r/heraldry/comments/dd39tj/arms_of_satan_as_depicted_in_the_13thcentury/ https://old.reddit.com/r/heraldry/comments/dd39tj/arms_of_sa...) (arguable, if you'd rather blazon the frogs as "proper", but...)
- ttepasse 3y ago> “The heraldic scholar A. C. Fox-Davies proposed that, in some circumstances, white should be considered a heraldic colour, distinct from argent” I took a look, just because Fox-Davies can be absurdly and amusingly pedantic about that stuff: He only postulates White as tincture for labels of cadency – as in the CoA of the Prince of Wales. The idea is to difference it from argent. The supporters of the PoW’s CoA are a lion or and the unicorn argent – both with a label. If the label was argent it would be a violation of the rule of tinctures for the lion and without distinction from the unicorn. https://archive.org/details/completeguidetoh00foxdrich/page/70 https://archive.org/details/completeguidetoh00foxdrich/page/... But I don’t think heraldic rules apply for flags. For banners and standards, which are CoAs in flag form, but the general flags are not CoA.
- labster 3y agoHeraldic rules should apply to flags, insofar as it is centuries of graphic design knowledge about what can be distinguished from a distance, and in low-light. Politics aside, the white-blue-white flag is simply a better design than the current flag of the Russian Federation, because color on metal is easier to distinguish. But the French tricolor looks great, because it follows the rules.
- lores 3y agoI love this kind of obscure scholarship, thank you!
- wolverine876 3y agoYou're citing Wikipedia as a source on this issue?
- dragonwriter 3y ago> I would have thought that should be gold and silver The Vatican City flag (when also referencing the descriptions of elements imported from the coat of arms) uses yellow and white and gold and silver (and the gold and silver are on the white.
- IIAOPSW 3y agoYou've heard of the black and blue dress, now get ready for the gold and white flag!