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> Honestly, this attitude—equating moderate criticism with “rabid hate” I was responding to this comment: "I absolutely hate the way fellow Indians will just t

> Honestly, this attitude—equating moderate criticism with “rabid hate” I was responding to this comment: "I absolutely hate the way fellow Indians will just try and deflect negative stories about India as western propaganda." Nice try trying to change the tone of his sentence (which was "I absolutely hate") to "moderate criticism". There is nothing "moderate" about "absolutely hating" something/someone. I was just responding to that "extreme" emotion he was projecting. Such extreme emotions might win you the mob but it won't change facts. > causes me to pause every time I get excited about India Okay. And? What difference would it make to India's growth trajectory if you lose your excitement? Is it going to make any dent? > But the way you tank that balance is with blind jingoism. Lol. As an Indian the only content I get to consume majority of the times, from Western media/press, is how shitty India is. And this has nothing to do with BJP/Modi but has to do with how India has always been projected in the Western media. Take literally any media clip of India showcased on Western news channels and you will have at least 1 clip of Mumbai slum (which is the smallest portion of Mumbai, a part of Maharashtra state in India) projected as India itself. It is like Indian channels showing Skid Row as USA. So if you feel some sort of "jingoism" coming from me it is purely a response to the nonsense I always see on Western media whenever India is talked about. As it almost always projects and enhances stereotypes already existing about India and Indians. And lets not forget the most common tropes: poverty, illiteracy, drinking water, sanitation, slums, education, electricity etc. No matter how much India improves and solves these issues (many of which are close to 100%) it still wouldn't satisfy West's craving for denigrating India just for kicks. So if I feel defensive about it, don't construe it as jingoism for the sake of it. I actually feel the difference in standard of living after being born here and lived for 34 years. I presume I have more experience about how much India has changed compared to Westerners or even NRIs who abandoned India for greener pastures and sit in the West and pontificate. Sorry if I sound jingoistic but I don't really care. Especially when the West doesn't really care about how India is denigrated repeatedly in their Media. And if anyone has even a mild amount of criticism of the West, they get banned/cancelled in the West or worse bombed out of existence (Iraq/Syria/Libya). So much for tolerance to free speech and human rights.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> nothing "moderate" about "absolutely hating" something/someone Fair enough. “I hate” in American English is a complaining—not raging—tone, though I grant it’s ambiguous and concede it shouldn’t be used. > What difference would it make to India's growth trajectory if you lose your excitement? Not much. Generally speaking, “fuck you, I’m beautiful” cultures that turn insecurity into a national sport have a common path. India’s elites are savvy enough to build trade and diplomatic relationships, learn from others’ successes and failures and show outward strength. But I’ve seen this dismissive attitude towards criticism of any kind in my own family, and it’s paused at least my investing in India. (The only other places I see this, ironically, is in the U.K., Russia and rural American south.) > I presume I have more experience about how much India has changed compared to Westerners or even NRIs who abandoned India for greener pastures and sit in the West and pontificate Right. This attitude. It’s limiting in its rejection of unexpected sources of information. Again, it’s not common. Particularly among the elite and worldly. But as in America, when this attitude spreads, it diminishes prospects.
- shri_krishna 3y ago
  > and it’s paused at least my investing in India And why is this so important? If you don't invest someone else will. The World is huge. There are plenty of players who are willing to invest in India's growth: both within borders of India as well as people from outside India. No dearth of those who believe in India's future. > Generally speaking, “fuck you, I’m beautiful” cultures that turn insecurity into a national sport have a common path. You know who excels at this the most? The West. Its penchant for "installing democracy" in various countries, by force, and then leaving it completely destabilized and destroyed is something we have seen happen time and time again. Which is why you see trends of de-dollarization and non-alignment picking up rapidly. If India doesn't toe the Western line of thought we are targeted, either with sanctions (like in the 90s after reciprocal nuclear tests) or pompous pontifications on democracy/human rights in 2020s (because the West no longer can simultaneously sanction as well as invest in India's growth can it?). You see we Indians know how to survive and thrive even in the worst of conditions. The 90s are a good reminder for all of us as to how reliable the West is. If we go further back into the 70s we had to face off a Western Alliance which sent ships to nuke us out of existence because we chose to side with Democracy against an evil Dictatorship which the West was mollycoddling with. If you don't know what I am talking about read up on the USS Enterprise and the 7th fleet (Task Force 74). [1] So yeah it applies more to the West compared to ancient cultures rooted in tradition like India. > (The only other places I see this, ironically, is in the U.K., Russia and rural American south.) So you are saying you don't see the West indulging in this but only U.K., Russia and rural American south? No wonder why the West is failing the past decade. Do you not even see the strong anti-West sentiment in the air as well as the de-dollarization that is gathering rapid speed/progress? If I were in your position I wouldn't be bothered about investing in India being an issue but be more worried about protecting my investments in the West considering the crazy geopolitical decisions the West has been taking lately. It has eroded a lot of confidence/trust other countries had towards the West. To the point where we are building alternate infrastructure to settle trade (which is currently dominated by the West with its SWIFT infrastructure). Not a good outlook for the West at the very least. Western hegemony will end. It is no longer a question of "if" but "when". > India’s elites are savvy enough to build trade and diplomatic relationships, learn from others’ successes and failures and show outward strength We don't need to learn from others' successes and failures. We have plenty of our own successes and failures if we just bother to look back into our rich Ancient history (which many Westernized Indians lack basic knowledge in). And most Indian elites/diplomats/businessmen have given examples from India's Ancient history as their source of strength. Have linked an example of the same from India's best EAM that we have ever had until now [2]. > limiting in its rejection of unexpected sources of information Please. Do not try to simplify this issue as an issue of rejecting "unexpected sources of information". The Western media has been playing this playbook for decades now. Most articles you see about India or the Indian Government (irrespective of who is in power) is mostly anti-India. Even positive news (like a successful rocket launch by ISRO) is sprinkled with at least some amount of negativity. The usual trope being poverty. There is no two ways about it. None of this is "unexpected". Rather Indians would find it "unexpected" if the West does not use any of the usual stereotypes associated with Indians and broadcasts news as is. We are so used to the denigration that many have become immune to it over time. We just expect to see at least one b-roll of Mumbai slum, of a heavily crowded marketplace, people hanging from trains and if not for these then definitely one of monkeys hopping buildings stealing food. Pick any news story about India from any Western publication, watch the story and tell me you don't see at least one of these typical racial stereotypes. [1] https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/calling-the-uss-bluff-in-1971/article30341831.ece https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/calling-the-uss-bluff... [2] https://youtu.be/i8ZM4r9pbmM?t=93 https://youtu.be/i8ZM4r9pbmM?t=93

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> nothing "moderate" about "absolutely hating" something/someone Fair enough. “I hate” in American English is a complaining—not raging—tone, though I grant it’s ambiguous and concede it shouldn’t be used. > What difference would it make to India's growth trajectory if you lose your excitement? Not much. Generally speaking, “fuck you, I’m beautiful” cultures that turn insecurity into a national sport have a common path. India’s elites are savvy enough to build trade and diplomatic relationships, learn from others’ successes and failures and show outward strength. But I’ve seen this dismissive attitude towards criticism of any kind in my own family, and it’s paused at least my investing in India. (The only other places I see this, ironically, is in the U.K., Russia and rural American south.) > I presume I have more experience about how much India has changed compared to Westerners or even NRIs who abandoned India for greener pastures and sit in the West and pontificate Right. This attitude. It’s limiting in its rejection of unexpected sources of information. Again, it’s not common. Particularly among the elite and worldly. But as in America, when this attitude spreads, it diminishes prospects.

shri_krishna 3y ago
> and it’s paused at least my investing in India And why is this so important? If you don't invest someone else will. The World is huge. There are plenty of players who are willing to invest in India's growth: both within borders of India as well as people from outside India. No dearth of those who believe in India's future. > Generally speaking, “fuck you, I’m beautiful” cultures that turn insecurity into a national sport have a common path. You know who excels at this the most? The West. Its penchant for "installing democracy" in various countries, by force, and then leaving it completely destabilized and destroyed is something we have seen happen time and time again. Which is why you see trends of de-dollarization and non-alignment picking up rapidly. If India doesn't toe the Western line of thought we are targeted, either with sanctions (like in the 90s after reciprocal nuclear tests) or pompous pontifications on democracy/human rights in 2020s (because the West no longer can simultaneously sanction as well as invest in India's growth can it?). You see we Indians know how to survive and thrive even in the worst of conditions. The 90s are a good reminder for all of us as to how reliable the West is. If we go further back into the 70s we had to face off a Western Alliance which sent ships to nuke us out of existence because we chose to side with Democracy against an evil Dictatorship which the West was mollycoddling with. If you don't know what I am talking about read up on the USS Enterprise and the 7th fleet (Task Force 74). [1] So yeah it applies more to the West compared to ancient cultures rooted in tradition like India. > (The only other places I see this, ironically, is in the U.K., Russia and rural American south.) So you are saying you don't see the West indulging in this but only U.K., Russia and rural American south? No wonder why the West is failing the past decade. Do you not even see the strong anti-West sentiment in the air as well as the de-dollarization that is gathering rapid speed/progress? If I were in your position I wouldn't be bothered about investing in India being an issue but be more worried about protecting my investments in the West considering the crazy geopolitical decisions the West has been taking lately. It has eroded a lot of confidence/trust other countries had towards the West. To the point where we are building alternate infrastructure to settle trade (which is currently dominated by the West with its SWIFT infrastructure). Not a good outlook for the West at the very least. Western hegemony will end. It is no longer a question of "if" but "when". > India’s elites are savvy enough to build trade and diplomatic relationships, learn from others’ successes and failures and show outward strength We don't need to learn from others' successes and failures. We have plenty of our own successes and failures if we just bother to look back into our rich Ancient history (which many Westernized Indians lack basic knowledge in). And most Indian elites/diplomats/businessmen have given examples from India's Ancient history as their source of strength. Have linked an example of the same from India's best EAM that we have ever had until now [2]. > limiting in its rejection of unexpected sources of information Please. Do not try to simplify this issue as an issue of rejecting "unexpected sources of information". The Western media has been playing this playbook for decades now. Most articles you see about India or the Indian Government (irrespective of who is in power) is mostly anti-India. Even positive news (like a successful rocket launch by ISRO) is sprinkled with at least some amount of negativity. The usual trope being poverty. There is no two ways about it. None of this is "unexpected". Rather Indians would find it "unexpected" if the West does not use any of the usual stereotypes associated with Indians and broadcasts news as is. We are so used to the denigration that many have become immune to it over time. We just expect to see at least one b-roll of Mumbai slum, of a heavily crowded marketplace, people hanging from trains and if not for these then definitely one of monkeys hopping buildings stealing food. Pick any news story about India from any Western publication, watch the story and tell me you don't see at least one of these typical racial stereotypes. [1] https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/calling-the-uss-bluff-in-1971/article30341831.ece https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/calling-the-uss-bluff... [2] https://youtu.be/i8ZM4r9pbmM?t=93 https://youtu.be/i8ZM4r9pbmM?t=93